Malheur occupation, explained

The deep history behind the Bundy brothers’ takeover of a wildlife refuge in Oregon.

 

Update: As of Tuesday Jan. 5, the Federal Bureau of Investigation had reportedly informed Harney County Sheriff David Ward that the wildlife refuge occupiers would face charges. The FBI is leading a criminal case against the group at the U.S. Fish & Wildlife refuge.

Since January 2, a crew of self-proclaimed militiamen have occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in eastern Oregon. The occupation is a reaction to the sentencing for arson of Dwight and Steve Hammond, local ranchers who have become symbols of the Sagebrush Rebellion over the last two decades. But the action goes far beyond just one family’s fight with the federal government. It’s an escalation of a Westwide insurgency sparked by the Bundy Ranch standoff in 2014.

The Hammond family has been at odds with the Bureau of Land Management since the early ’90s, initially over grazing and water rights and more recently over arson. The father and son son and father were sentenced in 2012 and served abbreviated sentences — a year and three months respectively. This October, the Hammonds were resentenced to five years each, with credit toward the time they already served.   

That aroused the passion of Ammon Bundy, son of Cliven Bundy, who made national news when he sparred with the BLM in 2014. Ammon Bundy has led a social media PR campaign for the Hammonds' cause, producing a flurry of emotional YouTube videos and blog posts that rally support for the Hammonds and stir hatred for the federal government. In response to his urgent call to action, several hundred people walked in peaceful protest through the town of Burns last Saturday in support of the Oregon ranchers. Some of them were locals, but most were from out of town.

Saturday afternoon following the rally, word got out that Bundy had ratcheted the support movement to a new level: He and a handful of compatriots including his brother Ryan, as well as Montana militiaman Ryan Payne, announced they were occupying the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, 23 miles south of Burns. They said they would stay there for as long as it took to stop federal overreach, and that they would be willing to fight and die for their cause.

While it at first appeared to be a repeat of the Bundy standoff or the Sugar Pine Mine incident in southern Oregon last spring, many of the individuals and organizations that rallied behind Cliven Bundy didn’t join the occupiers and, in fact, condemned their actions.

Even before the wildlife refuge occupation began Saturday afternoon, Ammon Bundy was a controversial figure within far-right circles. Stewart Rhodes, founder of the Oath Keepers, the national Constitutionalist organization that helped out at Bundy Ranch, called Bundy’s messaging “confusing and contradictory.” Rhodes criticized Bundy for putting out a call to action and incendiary rhetoric, without the full support of the Hammonds. Rhodes wrote: “At the very least Ammon needs to make it very clear what he is asking people to do, and he needs to make it clear that he is going against the clearly stated intent of the Hammonds.”

News of the occupation blindsided other leaders of the Hammond support movement. “It was like: Wait, what did they do?” says Joseph Rice, head of the Oath Keepers of Josephine County, Oregon, site of the Sugar Pine Mine incident. “You HIJACKED what turned out to be a great and peaceful rally,” Bj Soper, of the Pacific Patriots Network, wrote to Bundy on Facebook. Rice, Soper and other Hammond-supporters have called Bundy “radicalized” and “fringe,” since he went rogue.

Chuck Cushman, a close supporter of the Hammonds and brainchild of the conservative wise-use movement of the ‘90s, said of an email from Ammon Bundy: “Nearly all of what Bundy wrote was inaccurate at best. The facts were misstated and nearly all of what he talked about never happened…. Suzie [sic] Hammond (wife of Dwight) … expressed concern that statements were made that were just flat out wrong.” 

Bundy has refused to report how many people are camped at the wildlife refuge, but High Country News photographer Brooke Warren, who was at the site on Saturday night, counted 15 to 20 people. At least two were keeping watch in the federal fire tower. According to media reports, rumors have circulated that Bundy may have machinations to occupy a nearby BLM building as well.

Self-described Patriots gathered around a fire to keep warm, after they occupied the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.
Brooke Warren/High Country News

The dispute between the Hammonds and the federal government dates back decades. HCN reported in 1994 that Dwight Hammond, now 73, had made death threats against managers of the refuge in 1986, ’88 and ’91. He had also allegedly repeatedly violated a special permit that allowed him to move his cows across the refuge only at specific times. Hammond was briefly jailed in 1994 for "disturbing and interfering with" federal officials and then released after two nights in jail. Afterwards, nearly 500 ranchers apparently rallied in Burns to support the Hammonds in their ongoing dispute.

The more recent fight is over two fires in 2001 and 2006. According to a family member’s testimony that is central to prosecutors’ arguments, in 2001, Dwight Hammond led family members in setting a blaze that burned 139 acres of public land in order to destroy evidence of an illegal deer hunt. Hammond argued that the fire was meant to beat back invasive juniper that interfered with his cattle operation. Hammond lit the 2006 fire as a back-burn to lightning-caused fires, in order to protect his cattle and land. That backfire endangered the lives of BLM firefighters, according to Acting U.S. Attorney Billy Williams.  

In 2012, Hammond and his son were sentenced on charges of arson. Last year, Oregon’s federal attorney appealed the original sentence that was below the minimum required under the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act. In October, a U.S. district judge sentenced them to finish the five-year minimum prison term, with credit for time they already served. Shortly thereafter, Ammon Bundy began ramping up his PR campaign, using the Hammond case as a rallying cry for the wider Sagebrush Rebellion, the fight against the feds, with whom his own family had unfinished business.

Among the casualties of Ammon Bundy’s recent campaign appear to be the local communities of Burns and Hines, which have become divided over the Hammond situation and its fallout. Some local businesses have put up “Bundys go home” signs, while others have said they will only do business with Hammond supporters. Protestors on Saturday threw pennies, some violently, at the county sheriff’s office to send the message that Sheriff Dave Ward is a sell-out for not standing with them.

"We are using the wildlife refuge as a place for individuals across the United States to come and assist in helping the people of Harney County claim back their lands and resources," Bundy said Saturday. And yet, whom he is helping is not entirely clear. In public meetings Friday and Saturday, several locals worried that Bundy and militia members from out of town were concerned more with their own agendas than with the desires of Harney County residents. On a petition to President Obama to pardon the Hammonds, out of 1,700 signatures, only 157 indicate they're from the county, and the vast majority are from elsewhere. Yet the petition states: "The residents of Harney County believe that they have served enough time and are asking the President for a commute of sentence for the remainder of the Appeals Court Sentence."

One local, Shonna Mckay, wrote in a blog post: “Does anyone in town really know Ammon or what his real agenda is, has he come here and stirred things up for our best interest or is this his own personal vendetta... I have friends and family who live along their marching route that are afraid to be home on that day for fear of something happening.” Hines resident Diane Rapaport says Ammon Bundy and his compatriots have taken the local community “emotionally hostage.”

Since October, government officials and law enforcement in Burns and Hines have received death threats from Hammond supporters. According to a city administrator, as of January 4, two city halls, a courthouse, some county offices and public schools were temporarily closed due to safety concerns over the recent events. Employees at the Burns BLM office are also on leave, for safety reasons, until further notice.

Ammon Bundy’s bravado and apparent disregard for locals’ desires echo the events at Recapture Canyon in Utah in 2014, when his brother, Ryan Bundy, took an ATV protest ride farther than the local organizers seemed to want it to go. County Commissioner Phil Lyman organized the Utah protest and asked participants to stop at the end of a two-track road, and not proceed onto a more sensitive trail. Ryan Bundy disregarded Lyman’s request and charged onward.

In Burns, Ammon Bundy says he did meet with the Hammonds, who were grateful for his support. However, the ranchers say they did not request the call to action nor the occupation of the wildlife refuge in their names.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation, Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Fish & Wildlife have offered only generic statements about how they are responding to the situation. One employee at the local BLM office, who asked not to be named, told HCN that agency leadership has been as tight-lipped internally as it is in its public statements. The employee also said that the agency has discouraged staffers from attending public meetings about the Hammonds, not for political reasons, but for personnel safety.

Late Monday morning, Ammon Bundy and other occupiers held a press conference at the refuge. They read aloud a redress of grievances addressed to a number of public officials, which stated: “We hold compelling evidence that the U.S. Government abused the federal court system, situating the Hammond family into duress as effort to force the Hammond's to sell their Steen Mountain property to a federal agency.” The document requested a response from the federal government within five days. 

Tweeted image from Oregonian reporter Ian Kullgren of Ammon Bundy at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge this morning.

In response to reporters’ questions, Ammon said: “Statements are not good enough. We intend on going to work and assisting the people of Harney in claiming their rights, using their rights as free people. We have a lot of work of beginning to unwind the unconstitutional land transactions that have taken place here. And we have a defense mechanisms that allow us to do it while we’re here.” When a reporter asked whether any Harney County residents were occupying the refuge with him, he said no.   

Brooke Warren, associate designer for High Country News contributed reporting to to this story. Tay Wiles is the online editor for HCN. 

Steven Towers
Steven Towers Subscriber
Jan 04, 2016 02:10 PM
People are calling them "Vanilla ISIS" and "Y'all Qaeda," which are nice, but I prefer my "Ranch Davidians" to the tags that have gone viral.
Steven Towers
Steven Towers Subscriber
Jan 05, 2016 01:01 PM
My take in the form of an open letter to President Obama: http://anewscafe.com/[…]/
Jim Scarborough
Jim Scarborough
Jan 04, 2016 07:36 PM
I think what the Obama administration and federal agencies are attempting to subtly inform us is that they're not much interested in protecting our public lands from squatter ranchers and other rogue privatizers.

After Bunkerville and now Burns, the feds have basically given a green light to every disgruntled, far-right rube with more ammo than sense to start claiming the public domain for his own. The most we'll get from the feds are vague statements about "safety" and a hopefulness that the public will just get distracted and go back to its placid consumerism after some time has passed.

Seems the radical cowboys should think bigger. A chunk of BLM land in Nevada and a national wildlife refuge in Oregon are small potatoes. How about Joshua Tree? Grand Teton? Hell, why not all of Yellowstone? Clearly, no one in authority is interested in stopping them.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 12, 2016 12:48 AM
Obama is interested in avoiding the sort of massacre that occurred at the Branch Davidian compound. At the Bundy ranch, the armed and threatening protesters put women and children in the forefront of their massed nutcases.
pete mikkelsen
pete mikkelsen
Jan 05, 2016 11:15 AM
Mr. Scarborough, I appreciate most of what you have written in your comments. However, it's clear you have done very little research, lack knowledge of the history of Harney County, likely have never been to the Refuge, and apparently think the Feds aren't doing things right either. You sound like another Bundy to me. I for one think the Feds have done the right thing here, which is to let them have their little building in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of Winter, and where they are likely doing no harm to anyone but themselves and their cause. Too me, the more important thing to be debating is whether or not it was a necessary use of money, time, effort, etc. to re-sentence these folks. At what point are we safe from being prosecuted over and over again for the same crime?
Blair French
Blair French Subscriber
Jan 05, 2016 01:53 PM
Mr Mikkelsen, just to clarify, they were not prosecuted again, which is double-jeopardy, and against our Constitution. They were re-sentenced to fit within the guidelines/laws in place at the time of their sentencing.
Now let's suppose the occupiers are still there in late spring when the tourists arrive. What do we do then, suddenly kick them out? If not, and the refuge remains closed then the town of Burns and other small towns in the area will suffer financially. Who pays for that? Certainly not the Bundy's.
And before you claim that I know nothing of the area, which is unimportant, I used to live north of Burns and went to town frequently. I have also visited the refuge several times. Does that give me enough "street cred" for your liking?
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 12, 2016 01:19 AM
The Hammonds were charged with a crime that included a mandatory five year minimum. The judge in the original case refused to impose that penalty on the two. It was his last day on the bench before retirement. It should be noted that one fire was set by the Hammonds to destroy the evidence of their multiple illegal deer kills. The other was set to as a backfire to halt the spread of a natural fire as well as to destroy unwanted vegetation, such as juniper. It endangered the lives of those tasked to extinguish it. The HCN news fails to mention either. The issue of mandatory minimums, which has confined hundreds of thousands of mostly minority defendants in state and federal prisons, was not raised in the case of the Hammonds. The refuge, established in 1870, was initially stolen from a treaty reservation when its inhabitants, who had been forced to locate there, were removed after encroachment by white settlers and ranchers. The Northern Paiute band originally from there were called the Wadatika, for the seeds they gathered from where the Refuge is now situated. The Paiute are opposed to the Bundy occupation which the believe endangers traditional sites and artifacts that are protected by Refuge staff. I spent two days in Burns in June, by the way. The Paiute are now confined to a 760 acre (about 1.2 square miles) reservation on the northeast side of town that survivors purchased in order to maintain their traditional lifestyle and relationships.
Louis F Good
Louis F Good Subscriber
Jan 05, 2016 01:37 PM
It isn't mentioned in the article the importance of their very, very conservative LDS faith and how it guides their actions. I'm not talking about the mainstream church in SLC which has already expressed disapproval of the occupation but the splinter groups like Warren Jeffs and his followers in Colorado City, not far away from where Cliven Bundy lives.

The Bundys and their associates are very dangerous and should be treated accordingly. The BLM gave them a free pass in Nevada in 2014 and now seems surprised by this action? Maybe DC bureaucrats but not anyone who has ever worked for a land management agency in the west.

The Department of the Interior and the Obama administration fumbled the ball badly in 2014 and this is the result. It will get a lot worse before it gets better and I hope no-one gets killed in the process.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 11:26 AM
Excellent points Louis. I totally agree.
Charles Roberts
Charles Roberts
Jan 05, 2016 02:54 PM
"The father and son were convicted in 2012, under the 1996 Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act." Really? Do you do any research or just parrot what you hear elsewhere?

Go look up the indictment. It is very clear they were charged solely with crimes of arson, destruction of property (by fire) and the associated conspiracy charge (since they acted in concert).

Those laws have been around for decades and decades. Nowhere is there any mention, much less charge of terrorism, nor any conviction of such.

Sheesh! So much for accurate journalism.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 12, 2016 01:42 AM
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/[…]/Hammond_superseding-indictment1.pdf
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/844
1445. Discussion Of Selected Section 844 Offenses

Section 844(c) authorizes any explosives used or intended to be used in a violation under Chapter 40 to be seized. Such explosives also are subject to forfeiture. If it is impracticable or unsafe to move or store the explosives, they may be destroyed after an evidentiary sample is obtained.

Section 844(e) is a specific intent offense that prohibits the use of the mails, telephone, or other instruments of interstate or foreign commerce to make threats or convey false information. As amended by the Antiterrorism Act of 1996, § 724, 110 Stat. at 1300, section 844(e) also prohibits whoever, "in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce," makes false bomb or arson reports. Id. A violation of this subsection is a felony that may be punished by imprisonment not exceeding ten years, a fine of up to $250,000, or both. Id. at § 708, 110 Stat. at 1296.
18 U.S. Code § 844 - Penalties
(i) Whoever maliciously damages or destroys, or attempts to damage or destroy, by means of fire or an explosive, any building, vehicle, or other real or personal property used in interstate or foreign commerce or in any activity affecting interstate or foreign commerce shall be imprisoned for not less than 5 years and not more than 20 years, fined under this title, or both; and if personal injury results to any person, including any public safety officer performing duties as a direct or proximate result of conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be imprisoned for not less than 7 years and not more than 40 years, fined under this title, or both; and if death results to any person, including any public safety officer performing duties as a direct or proximate result of conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall also be subject to imprisonment for any term of years, or to the death penalty or to life imprisonment.
Jim Scarborough
Jim Scarborough
Jan 05, 2016 03:10 PM
Pete, you presume too much. I've visited the Malheur NWR and have been in Harney County a couple times. I'm no expert on all things Harney, it's true, though I've concretely observed that federal agencies have given the public nothing but silence, while emboldening the militia types, since the Bunkerville fiasco a year and a half ago. They haven't bothered to reassure us that safeguarding public lands is even a remote priority for them. They've allowed the wingnuts to capture and exploit 200 square miles of BLM land in Nevada with nary a peep, and thus far seem to have little interest in preventing the radical cowpokes in Oregon from illegally hunting the local avian life for food, introducing cattle to the refuge, or god knows what else.

I'm sorry if this criticism of the Obama administration hurts your feelings, but you might consider temporarily distancing yourself from your political loyalties to see how apathetic and impotent federal agencies have been in this context. Almost always in these circumstances, rank and file personnel are neutered because there's no support or resources coming from the top.

Where does it end? It ends when a critical mass of people tell the Obama administration to man up and start protecting every last acre of our birthright from these rancid squatters. In other words, the feds need to do their damned jobs.
Kate Schimel
Kate Schimel Subscriber
Jan 05, 2016 03:12 PM
Hey folks, just a reminder to refrain from personal attacks when you comment. Thanks for the lively dialogue and for reading! -- Kate Schimel, Assistant Editor
Mark Rozman
Mark Rozman Subscriber
Jan 05, 2016 06:01 PM
How about if the ranchers pay the going rate for grazing? Or just pay what they owe? No transfer of MY public land to some welfare ranchers!! Ever. If you don't like the grazing allotment system, just go ahead and graze your own deeded land.
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 05, 2016 08:18 PM
This is a good time to stop and revisit the adverse affects the BLM and federal government have had in rural areas. People living in these areas are good citizens by have had their means of earning a living stopped. There needs to be open discussions to resolve a situation that will only become worse. I'm 80 years old and over the past 40 years have watched the government agencies, local, state, and federal mismanage these lands. No one wins but with the arrogance of public agency employees and managers little will be acomplished to resolve these conflicts.
g wells
g wells
Jan 07, 2016 08:54 AM
Can anyone verify the facts presented in this article? http://www.theamericanconservative.com/[…]/ High Country News usually gets the facts correct when they publish an article. I would like to see verification of the reference discussion or a factual rebuttal. I'm sure many others as well would be interested.
jim bolen
jim bolen Subscriber
Jan 05, 2016 11:46 PM
The thing to remember is these lands belong to the American people. One may not like all the rules but they are put in for a purpose which may interfere with one's livelihood which has been based for decades on being subsidized by the very government that these right wingers hate. So now there militias are blocking entry. Are my rights as a American citizen being violated by the Militias by denying me access to our public lands?
It's ironic we kill a unarmed young black men for very little provocation but let these thugs get away with pointing
guns at our our peace officers. At recapture canyon there are photos of men with long range rifles pointing at BLM officers and yet no charges. I guess if you are white it's ok
Jim Bolen
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 06, 2016 12:00 AM
Honest and open discussions about realities and affects on both sides could be a beginning. For almost 30 years I've taken strong vocal positions and activities to protect the environment in southwest Washington State. Laws were being broken by violators with no enforcement by local, state, and federal agencies. People have to be involved to understand some of these realities. Public employees and managers are seldom held accountable for their mistakes or unwillingness to become involved in controversy. When people approach these issues understanding that we can learn from each other if we remain respectful. I don't subscribe to
the militias action but it may serve to incite rational discussion to resolve the issues. There is always hope.
John Graham
John Graham
Jan 06, 2016 05:27 AM
Let 'em have their land, especially if it is their right, but then cut all their federal subsidies and the quit the rancher's dependency on US welfare money.
1. Ammon Bundy’s federal guaranteed $ 530,000 'maintenance' loan from the Small Business Administration
2. Stop US government discounts for cattle grazers vs. private landholders. The feds charges 93 percent less for cattle grazing than private landowners
3. Stop the “emergency” livestock feed program, which ranchers even get routinely in non-drought years
4. Stop giving only ranchers special huge discounts on leases of public land - fair and square for anyone - same cost
5. Stop funding federal “animal damage control” program, in which federal employees kill off the nearby predators that present a danger to cattle.
http://usuncut.com/[…]/5-government-handouts-bundys-receive
Mark Rozman
Mark Rozman Subscriber
Jan 06, 2016 06:17 AM
I fully agree with Mr. Graham. This can be a turning point for ALL Americans. High Country News Needs to do a large, multi-issue piece on the ranching industry. Please, shed some light on the good, bad and the ugly so to speak. Let's see balanced reporting on the strong environmental conservation by some, riparian area destruction by some and the "welfare ranching" subsidies given to so-called "corporations" in the public-land ranching business. Good, bad, ugly. Three issues. Balanced reporting. This is long overdue. Let us all see how truly "independent" these ranchers are. Who owns these massive grazing allotments? Are they ranchers or are they, say, BANKERS? Or other wealthy business people working the system for financial gain? Let's cut the "bull" and get to the unvarnished truth.
Mark Rozman
Mark Rozman Subscriber
Jan 06, 2016 06:18 AM
I fully agree with Mr. Graham. This can be a turning point for ALL Americans. High Country News Needs to do a large, multi-issue piece on the ranching industry. Please, shed some light on the good, bad and the ugly so to speak. Let's see balanced reporting on the strong environmental conservation by some, riparian area destruction by some and the "welfare ranching" subsidies given to so-called "corporations" in the public-land ranching business. Good, bad, ugly. Three issues. Balanced reporting. This is long overdue. Let us all see how truly "independent" these ranchers are. Who owns these massive grazing allotments? Are they ranchers or are they, say, BANKERS? Or other wealthy business people working the system for financial gain? Let's cut the "bull" and get to the unvarnished truth.
Rebecca Thistlethwaite
Rebecca Thistlethwaite Subscriber
Jan 06, 2016 11:46 AM
Mr. Wiles- good article overall, but I was just curious why you refer to the armed occupiers as "patriots" and "compatriots"? Isn't a more apt adjective "illegal occupiers" or "armed protesters" or something like that?
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 06, 2016 12:13 PM
Those of us who have taken pro-active positions in defense of the environment for many years need to understand that a lot has changed. I've lived in two rural towns and in a large city and represented the public interest on appointed boards and commissions in both places. What I might regarded as black and white earlier I tend now at 80 years to understand there may be a middle ground that is ultimately more reasonable. Sometimes in evaluating these issues as in this story its difficult to understand what is reasonable and what are selfish motives. Too often it is selfish interests and unreasonable steps each side takes to promote their own gain. What is morally right and not necessarily legally correct should be a consideration. I remember a planning commission chairman in a rural area making the comment regarding their decision, "Because its legal doesn't mean its right". When selfish interests are obvious on either side its necessary to investigate further. Doing what is right should be the goal for all interests.
jim bolen
jim bolen Subscriber
Jan 06, 2016 02:44 PM
Mr. Parker I am not sure what selfish interests you are referring to on the environmentalist's side. Certainly there is one on the other side as ranchers, timber and mining interest all profit greatly from exploiting the land. Not saying that making a profit on fed lands should't be part of the equation but it has to be within the confines of proper stewardship of the land.
I don't profit for making a stand for the wildlife that inhabits these areas. they can't speak out in their own self interest so if this is selfish on my part so be it
Jim Bolen
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 06, 2016 03:15 PM
Jim Bolen has valid points and are applicable to this situation and its responsible and makes good sense. My experience and activities to protect the Willapa Bay estuary are somewhat different than in the Malheur NWR. I've dealt with issues related privately owned land used for shelfish production. For thirty years I've witnessed the ignorance and mismanagement of the estuary by the public agencies. This is entirely different from what is occuring in the Malheur NWR which is public property. It's good for this discussion to identify the differences and to recognize how one issue is dealt with reasonably by public agencies and the other in the Willapa estuary to the contrary. Responsible and experienced people need to maintain these discussions in public if ever common sense will prevail in the longterm public interest.
Crazy Horse
Crazy Horse
Jan 06, 2016 02:45 PM
I am a birder as is my 11 year old son. We are Oregonians. We want to visit Malheur NWR. This is a federal wildlife refuge and as taxpaying Americans, it belongs to us as well. I want to be able to sue these militia guys for impeding my ability to enjoy these public facilities. The current situation is unfair and if they want to protest, they should do so without impeding other Americans from enjoying public land.
Kim Forrest
Kim Forrest
Jan 06, 2016 08:16 PM
The Hammonds have threatened to kill at least four previous refuge managers, and the family of one of them (at least). They started this most recent fire at night, downslope of a fire crew camp (we all know fire races uphill). It was small, but one of their previous fires ended up 19,000 acres; ALL wildfires jeopardize the lives of fire-fighters. They repeatedly trespass grazed, blocked the work of refuge employees, destroyed a research site. Jim and Louis -- Let's not jump to conclusions regarding what law enforcement officials are doing or not doing...except, obviously, staying out of the spotlight. Smart move. Pete -- There was no double jeopardy here -- that would violate the U.S. Constitution. Charles and Pete -- The Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 created the 5-year mandatory minimum sentences that the Hammonds face for arson on public property. Crazy Horse -- You got it -- they stole YOUR land. The FBI definition of domestic terrorism: "Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law; Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and, Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S". You decide.
Greg Nagle
Greg Nagle Subscriber
Jan 06, 2016 08:27 PM
If people are feeling upset that they are cut off from visiting the refuge, all the best since the more enemies the Bundy boys make, fine with me, But the reality is that the buildings they seized are on a side road with the vast portion of the refuge accessible through several hundred miles of other roads. They took a few buildings, to take the refuge would need an army,
Tom Schweich
Tom Schweich Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 08:50 AM
Received the following from a friend. It suggests that portions of the Refuge were once owned by the State of Oregon, who then sold them back to the federal government. Not sure how, then, the feds stole the land from the ranchers.

"I looked at the Land Office records for areas near the Refuge. As an example, on March 10 1884 a patent was issued to the State of Oregon for 39,800 acres in the general vicinity of the Frenchglen Hotel. Once a patent is issued, the owner (this case the State) is then free to sell the land (which would require a title search to know to whom and when etc). For the vicinity of the Refuge Headquarters, another patent was issued on September 8 1890 for 14652 acres under the disposal authority of the Swamp Land Act of 1850, which provided to states which would agree to drain the land and turn it to productive a grant. So, in effect, significant portions of the now Federal refuge were at one time State lands, thence would have transfered on to the owners such as the French Glen outfit, whom also could obtain title under other land disposal acts of that era. The irony is, large chunks were Federal lands given to the State. http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/[…]/default.aspx...
Patent Details - BLM GLO Records
GLORECORDS.BLM.GOV"
John Derinzy
John Derinzy Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 12:51 PM
How come the article doesn't mention anything about the Mining Report from the USGS/BLM on the huge reservoir of minerals under Steens Mountain. How come the article doesn't give a true account and history of the BLM and USFWS activities in teh area that date all the way back to Theodore Roosevelt and his actions in the area of creating Indian lands and the continual movement of the USFWS and BLM to occupy more and more and more land since then. The Hammonds are one of the last hold outs from wanting to give up their land.

You people on here who espouse to be public land experts, why don't you do some research. Our public lands are being managed by gestapo agencies that manage them for the purpose of control and restriction. Environmentalism is toxic. In the words of George Reisman: "Only from the perspective of the alleged intrinsic value of nature and the non-value of man, can man’s improvement of his environment be termed the destruction of the environment.”

I bet none of you have taken a single university course in range management, ecology, botany, natural resource management or the likes. Let alone a single course in constitutional law, because if you did you would realize what the Hammonds want is within their God given right. If you don't like it, leave and go to another communist country where you might be welcomed in open arms.
Mark Rozman
Mark Rozman Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 02:18 PM
John, newsflash !! These are NOT deeded acres with the Hammond name on the deed. These are GRAZING ALLOTMENTS ONLY !! What does it cost to graze 1 AUM ( animal unit month ) ? Maybe $5 ? What does it cost to buy an acre of land in volume ? Maybe $500/acre ? History is nice, but try to focus on the here and now please. If the Feds are so bad then just graze your own land and leave them to their own devices.
John Derinzy
John Derinzy Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 03:43 PM
I am fully aware its not deeded land with the Hammonds name. It's been a long fight against locals to take away more and more land to expand the refuge and blm lands. Lots of minerals! Your not getting the whole story just from HCN. Try researching the history of this area and whats been going on. The narrative of this story has been hijacked by the MSN and liberals.

Have you listened to their news release the other day? If not, I implore you to do so. This fight they have is not just about them, it's about our whole nation and our resources being stolen from us.

I know the whole grazing program has it's problems and needs to be fixed. I used to work in land management. However, many ranchers are way better land stewards than either our government or so called "land preservationists".
Kim Forrest
Kim Forrest
Jan 08, 2016 04:06 PM
Land was purchased from willing sellers, not "taken away". Federal lands belong to ALL Americans.
John Derinzy
John Derinzy Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 04:01 PM


Congressman Greg Walden addresses U.S. House on situation in Harney County, OR Oregon Rep. Greg Walden, whose congressional district includes the embattled Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, took to the U.S. House floor Tuesday afternoon to give a spirited defense of his rural constituents and a harsh critique of the federal government.

The U.S. Bureau of Land Management was the target of withering criticism Tuesday by Oregon Rep. Greg Walden in a dramatic speech.
Walden, speaking from the House floor for nearly a half hour, gave voice to rural frustrations with government officials, particularly the federal land bureau that manages huge swaths of eastern Oregon.

Here is the text of his speech, provided by his office:

Mr. Speaker, I am sure my colleagues are aware of the situation in Harney County, Oregon, where a group of armed protesters have overtaken a Federal facility in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

This group is led largely by people who are not necessarily from Oregon, although they obviously have supporters from Oregon. They were originally there to protest the sentencing of Dwight and Steve Hammond.

I know the Hammonds. I have known them for probably close to 20 years. They are longtime, responsible ranchers in Harney County. They have been sentenced to prison not once, but now twice. I will get into that in a moment.

The point I want to make at the outset is for people in this Chamber to understand what drives people to do what is happening tonight in Harney County.

I have had the great honor and privilege to represent Harney County for a number of years. I have seen the impact of Federal policies from the Clinton administration to the Obama administration. I have seen what happens when overzealous bureaucrats and agencies go beyond the law and clamp down on people. I have seen what courts have done. I have seen the time for Congress to act and then it has not.

I want to put this area in perspective because I think it is really important to understand how big this region is. By size, my congressional district in Oregon is something like the seventh or eighth biggest in the Congress. If you overlaid it over the east coast, it would start in the Atlantic and end in Ohio.


The county where this occupation is taking place - Harney County - is over 10,000 square miles. There are 7,000 souls inhabiting it. If my math is right, that is one person for every 1.4 miles. One person for every 1.4 miles.

Just this one county is 10 times the size of Rhode Island. It is larger than the State of Maryland. And 72 percent of it is under the command and control of the Federal Government.

It is the public's land. That is true. But what people don't understand is the culture, the lifestyle, of the great American West and how much these ranchers care about the environment, about the future, about their children, about America, and how much they believe in the Constitution. Now we see the extent they will go to in order to defend what they view as their constitutional rights.

Now, I am not defending armed takeovers. I do not think that is appropriate. I think the time has come for those to consider that they have made their case in the public about what is happening in the West, and perhaps it is time for them to realize they have made their case and to go home.

But I want to talk about what happened with the Hammonds. I want to put in perspective what happens almost every year in my district. That is these enormous wildfires.

The Miller Homestead Wildfire in 2012 burned 160,000 acres, mostly in this county, if not all; 250 square miles, a quarter of the size of the State of Rhode Island. That was just in 2012.

The Barry Point Fire that year, in Lake County, next door, burned 93,000 acres. Last summer alone, we burned 799,974 acres across Oregon; that is both forest and high desert. In 2012, 3.4 million acres burned in Oregon.

There was another fire in Malheur County. The Long Draw Fire, in 2012, burned 557,000 acres, five times the size of Rhode Island. So 93,000 acres, 557,000 acres, 160,000 acres, all burning.

The Hammonds are in prison tonight for setting a backfire that they admit to, that burned 139 acres, and they will sit in prison, time served and time going forward, 5 years, under a law that I would argue was never intended to mete out that kind of punishment, and I will get to that in a moment.

I have told you I worked with the Hammonds and many ranchers in Harney County. In the last years of the Clinton administration, despite their own agency's reviews and analysis, Bill Clinton threatened to create a giant monument on Steens Mountain.

When Secretary Babbitt, the Interior Secretary at the time, came before the House Resources Committee, of which I was a member, I said: Mr. Secretary, your own resource advisory committees in the area just reported that there was no need for additional protection on Steens Mountain, and yet, you and the President are threatening to create this national monument. Why do you waste the time of the citizens to go through a process to determine if additional protections are needed and then ignore what they came up with?


To Bruce Babbitt's credit, he agreed when I told him: I think you would be surprised about what the local ranchers and citizens of Harney County would be willing to do if you give them a chance. To his credit, he said: All right, I will give them that chance. And he did.

We went to work on legislation. It took a full year. I worked with the Hammonds. I worked with Stacy Davies, I worked with all kinds of folks, put a staffer on it full-time, multiple staffs, and we worked with the environmental community and others. And we created the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Act, model legislation, never been done before, because I said: We don't have to live by past laws, we write laws.

So we wrote a new law to create a cooperative spirit of management in Harney County. The Hammonds were part of that discussion. We saved a running camp, Harlan Priority Runs. We protected inholder. We tried to do all the right things and create the kind of partnership and cooperation that the Federal Government and the citizens should have.

Fast forward on that particular law. Not long after that became law, and it was heralded as this monumental law of great significance and new era in cooperation and spirit of cooperation, some of those involved on the other side and some of the agencies decided to reinterpret it. The first thing they tried to do is shut down this kid's running camp because they said: Well, too many, maybe more than 20, run down this canyon and back up, as they had for many, many years. They wanted to shut it down. So we had to fight them back and said: No, the law says historical standards.

Then the bureaucrats, because we said: You should have your historical access to your private property, if you are up on Steens Mountain, you should maintain that access like you have always had it. Do you know what the bureaucrats said? They began to solicit from the inholders in this area: How many times did you go up there last year? You see, they wanted to put a noose around the neck of those who were inside. That was a total violation of what we intended, and we had to back them off.

See, the bureaucracy wants to interpret the laws we write in ways they want, and in this case they were wrong, not once, but twice.

Then, a couple of years ago, I learned that, despite the fact we created the first cow-free wilderness in the United States under this law, and said clearly in this law that it would be the responsibility of the government to put up fencing to keep the cows out, as part of the agreement, the Bureau of Land Management said: No, we are not going to follow that law. And they told the ranchers they had to build the fence.

I networked with my Democrat colleague from Oregon, Mr. DeFazio, who was part of writing this law. I said: Peter, you remember that, right? He said: Yeah, I didn't like it, but that was the case. BLM still wouldn't listen. So we continued to push it and they argued back.

Well, it turns out there had been a second rancher who brought this to my attention who they were telling had to do the same thing, build a fence, when the government was supposed to under the law I wrote. The arrogance of the agency was such that they said: We don't agree with you.

Now, there aren't many times, Mr. Speaker, in this job when you can say I know what the intent of the law was, but in this case I could because I wrote the law, I knew the intent.

Oh, that wasn't good enough. No, no, no. No, no, no. The arrogance of these agency people was such that we had to go to the archives and drag out the boxes from 2000, 1999-2000, when we wrote this law, from the hearings that had all the records for the hearings and the floor discussions to talk about the intent. And our retired Member, George Miller, actually we used some of his information where he said the government would provide the fencing. They were still reluctant to follow it. So I put language in the appropriations bill that restated the Federal law.

Do you understand how frustrated I am at this? Can you imagine how the people on the ground feel? Can you imagine? If you are not there, you can't. If you are not there, you can't.

You ridicule them. The Portland Oregonian is running a thing, what do you send? Meals for militia. Let's have fun with this.

This is not a laughing matter from any consequence. Nobody is going to win out of this thing.

This is a government that has gone too far for too long. Now, I am not condoning this takeover in any way. I want to make that clear. I don't think it is appropriate. There is a right to protest. I think they have gone too far. But I understand and hear their anger.

Right now, this administration, secretly, but not so much, is threatening, in the next county over, that looks a lot like this one, Malheur County, to force a monument of 2.5 million acres, we believe. I think this is outrageous. It flies in the face of the people and the way of life and the public access.

There is a company, Keen Shoes, that already has a big marketing campaign. This is about selling shoes, for God's sake. I call on the President, if he wants to help reduce the tension that is out there, to walk away from this. And if he doesn't want to walk away and say, no, we are not going to do that, to help us bring down this level of frustration and anger, then at least be honest, or his Secretary of the Interior needs to be honest with us and tell us they are going to do it.

Either they are or they aren't. But all they are is being coy. That feeds into this. It feeds into the anger that I feel. It feeds into the anger out there.

So the President should say: I am not going to do a national monument. I am not going to add more fuel on this fire in the West.

We have fought other issues. More than half of my district is under Federal management, or lack thereof. They have come out with these proposals to close roads into the forests. They have ignored public input. They often claim to have all these open meetings and listen to the public, and then, in the case of Wallowa-Whitman, the forest supervisor who was eventually relieved because of this, I believe, completely ignored all the meetings, all the input, all the work of the counties and the local people, and said: Forget it, I am going my own direction.

There were 900 people that turned out at the National Guard Armory where they had a public hearing, standing room only and beyond, furious.

You see, how do you have faith in a government that doesn't ever listen to you? How do you have faith in a government that, when elected Representatives write a law, those charged with the responsibility of implementing it choose to go the other direction and not do so? That is what is breaking faith between the American people and their government, and that is what has to change.

The other thing that has to change, the law under which the Hammonds were sentenced. Now, they probably did some things that weren't legal. I have given you the size of the acreages that burned naturally. I haven't gotten into the discussion about how these fires are often fought and how the Federal Government frequently will go on private land and set a fire without permission to backburn. That happens all the time.

In fact, in the Barry Point Fire down in Lake County, they set fire on private timber land as a backburn while the owners of the property were putting out spot fires down in the canyon. I drove down there afterwards. They are darn lucky to have come out alive.

There was nobody sentenced under the terrorism act there. Oh, heck no. It is the government. They weren't sentenced. Nobody was charged. Oh, it just happened.

Now, fires are tough to fight. I have great respect for firefighters. There are always two sides on how these fires get fought. But I can tell you, a few years back in Harney County, because I went and held a meeting out there right as the fire was being put out, that the fire crews came in, went on private ground, lit a backfire on private ground, behind a fence line, that then burned out the farmer's fence, the rancher's fence, and burned all the way over and down into a canyon where there was a wetland, which would have been the natural break to stop the fire from the other side. You see, they never needed to burn that land.

These things happen in the course of fighting fire. It doesn't mean they are right. But rare is it that somebody ends up 5 years in prison.

Let me tell you what the senior judge said when he sentenced the Hammonds the first time, Judge Michael Hogan, senior Federal judge, highly respected in Oregon. He sentenced Dwight Hammond to 3 months and Steve to a year. There were different offenses here.

He said: "I am not going to apply the mandatory minimum because, to me, to do so, under the Eighth Amendment, would result in a sentence which is grossly disproportionate to the severity of the offenses here."

The Judge went on to say: "And with regard to the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, this sort of conduct would not have been conduct intended under the statute."

When you ask, you know, what if you burn sagebrush in the suburbs of Los Angeles, and there are homes up the ravines, it might apply. Out in the wilderness here, I don't think that is what the Congress intended.

In addition, it just would not meet any idea I have of justice proportionality. It would be a sentence which would shock the conscience, to me.

But, you see, under this 1996 law under which they were charged and convicted, it turns out he had no judicial leeway. He could not mete out a sentence that was proportionate to what the crime was.

So yesterday, Dwight and Steve went to prison again. Dwight will be 73 when he gets out. Steve will be about 50.

Meanwhile, in Harney County, on the ranch, Susie will continue to try and survive; 6,000-acre ranch, she needs grazing permits to make this happen. It would be a cruel and unjust act, by the way, if access to those grazing permits that allow that ranch to work were not extended. What possible good could come out of bankrupting a grandmother that was trying to keep a ranch together, while the husband sits in prison, her son sits in prison? What possible good?

They will serve their sentences. There is nothing, short of clemency that only the President can offer, that we can do. But we can change that law, and we should, so that nobody ever is locked in like that for a situation like this, where a senior judge, literally, on his final day on the bench, says this goes too far, it goes too far. They appealed that, by the way, and lost. But I believe that the judge was right.

We have to listen to the people. We have to understand why events like this are taking place in our communities. They are taking place in cities. We have witnessed that, and we try and get our heads around it.

There are more people from the cities, so there are more Members from the cities. There aren't many of us that represent these vast, wide-open, incredibly beautiful, harsh districts like the one I do.

The people there love the land. It was the ranchers who came up with the concept of the cooperative management. It was the ranchers who loved Steens Mountain that know that for them to survive they have to take care of the range.

They are good people. Their sons and daughters, by a higher proportion, fight in our wars and die, and I have been to their funerals. So to my friends across eastern Oregon, I will always fight for you. But we have to understand there is a time and a way. Hopefully the country through this understands we have a real problem in America: how we manage our lands and how we are losing them.

It is not like we haven't tried here, Mr. Speaker. Year after year we pass bipartisan legislation to provide more active management on our forests so we don't lose them all to fire, and we are losing them all to fire. We are losing firefighters lives, homes, and watersheds - great resources of the West. Teddy Roosevelt would roll over in his grave. He created this wildlife refuge in 1908.

There were some bad actors there in the 1980s, by the way. They were very aggressive running the refuge, basically threatening eminent domain and other things that took ranches. It was bad. That lasted for at least a decade or more. It has gotten better though. It is not perfect. There is a much better relationship, and the refuge and the ranchers work closer together. In fact, during this fire in 2012, the refuge actually opened itself up to the ranchers for hay and feed because theirs was burned out because of this big fire. So there was a better spirit there.

But there are still these problems: the threat of waters of the U.S. shutting down stock ponds and irrigation canals and a way of life, the threat of fire every year that seems to not be battled right and just gets away, and no one is really held accountable; the continued restriction on the lives of the men and women who, for generations, have worked hard in a tough environment. It has just gone too far. It is hurtful.

I hope people understand how serious this is felt and how heartfelt this is by those who pay their taxes and try and live by the law and do the right things and how oppressed they feel by the government that they elect and the government they certainly don't elect, and how much they will always defend the flag and the country, and their sons and daughters would go to war, some will not come back and they have not from this area.

There is a better solution here. The President needs to back off on the monument. The BLM needs to make sure Susie Hammond isn't pushed into bankruptcy and has her ranch taken by the government and added to those that have been. We need to be better at hearing people from all walks of life and all regions of our country and understanding this anger that is out there and what we can do to bring about correct change and peaceful resolution.

It is not too late. We can do this. It is a great country. We have the processes to do it right.

Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 11, 2016 12:39 PM
Dear John and Greg, This is a very confused, convoluted and contradictory bit of government-speak here. It is very difficult to parse through exactly what Greg's point is to this.
It does, however , resonate in its general form with the overriding themes of the Sagebrush Rebels...to wit: government arrogance, tyranny, confiscation of land and consequent white male outrage at the aforementioned.
OK...so let us talk about outrageous behavior. Let's start with the 400 years of expropriation,genocide and marginalization without recourse practiced uppon the First Nations and natives of the New World by white males under the divine right mandate of the imperial nation states of Europe and their successors on this side of the pond under Manifest Destiny.
Greg Walden grudgingly acknowledges that the Public Lands of the area do belong to the US Government,,,,but he does not indicate that, while he was rummaging through old records, he came across any treaty documents with the local Paiutes ceding their land to the government...which would mean that it is still theirs! Neither does Greg Warnmer mention the creation of a reservation for the Paiutes that was roughly twice the size of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge sometime in the mid-19th century. he further neglects to note the seizure of the northern portion of said reservation during the Grant administration which was subsequently handed over to :a group of hostile Oregon ranchers in an attempt to appease them. Why don't the Native Americans get any mention or consideration in this speech?
It is also of interest that Greg Warner deems it OK for President Roosevelt to create the wildlife refuge in 1908, but not for President Obama to create a National Monument out of Steens Mountain under his authority per the Antiquities Act which TR and most subsequent presidents of used on numerous occasions. All of this needs clarification on the part of the esteemed congressman.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 11:32 AM
Walden is an idiot and made a fool of himself on the floor of Congress. He embarrssed all Oregonians. The Hammonds broke the law and were prosecuted and convicted. It should have happend in 1994 when this started. Living off the grid and in the boonies does not make one immune to the rule of law.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 13, 2016 05:57 PM
Actually, Rep. Walden knows he's lying, i.e., "maybe more than 20" runners. It's two groups of 150 runners each.
http://www.thefreelibrary.c[…]amp+for+runners.-a085562103
The photo: https://www.facebook.com/steensmrc

"Who are you going to believe," Walden says. "Me, or your eyes?"
John Derinzy
John Derinzy Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 04:02 PM
*** Mike Drop ***
Jim Scarborough
Jim Scarborough
Jan 08, 2016 05:57 PM
Greg Walden sympathizes with domestic terrorists. With seditionists. And apparently so do you, John. The real tragedy is that our federal agencies are deferential to them, too. This game of patty cake being played between the terrorists/seditionists and "law enforcement" at Malheur has truly wrecked my stomach. A nation of laws? I don't think so. It's a nation of who's got the money, who's got the guns, and who's got the proper pigmentation, not much else.
Derek Volkart
Derek Volkart Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 06:07 PM
Well said. At least Walden got to experience first hand what I have experienced for years….the one-way dead end street that my comments travel to die in the agency file cabinets. I notice that Congressman Walden could care less about the pro-environmental causes that were advocated for. His staffers used to claim that they did not receive calls in favor of environmentalist causes. Walden's partisan nature and the double standard he speaks demonstrates why citizens in his district might skip that call. Walden is a partisan zealot who can't be swayed by strength of argument or inherent worth of nature. He is simply a disgrace in my opinion.
John Derinzy
John Derinzy Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 06:29 PM
Jim, you just agreed with me whether you realize it or not (in reference to the last part of your statement). You're right, we are no longer a nation of law.

The rest of your statement: I don't think you realize who the government considers terrorists now.

I'll leave it at that.
Jim Scarborough
Jim Scarborough
Jan 08, 2016 07:10 PM
There's still debate over whether Tim McVeigh even might be a terrorist, so I think your "tribe" can rest easy, John. The government bends over backward for white rural folks: building roads and schools, bargain basement grazing fees, payment in lieu of taxes, public utility districts, small business loans, Social Security, healthcare. The list goes on and on and on.

But a sizable contingent of those same rural folks won't be satisfied until the government appeases their every last wish, no matter how selfish and shortsighted. And in the same breath, they'll demand that their ample benefits not be extended in any manner to "those people" on the other side of the tracks. It's "socialism for me, but not for thee" to the nth degree. And the government replies, "I understand, let's talk this out," no matter how ridiculous or violent or damaging the rural tantrums become when things aren't quite the Garden of Eden they expect.

I figure the FBI, Harney County sheriff, and the Bundys will be sitting down for tea and crumpets before the weekend is over. Maybe Sally Jewell will drop by for a beer and photo op. Honestly, the rural white privilege is so thick and pervasive that it's hardly even noticed. It's as taken for granted as Great Basin sagebrush.
Crazy Horse
Crazy Horse
Jan 08, 2016 07:49 PM
I am just a city slicker albeit with a deep love for the open country of the West. That being said, it seems like a whole bunch of things are getting conflated here.

First of all, what is not for debate is who owns the land. The US got the land, some through treaties with foreign powers, some through treaties (fair or foul) with the native Americans, whatever. But the land now belongs to the US taxpayer.

These lands are held in public trust by the US government on behalf of the people. The lands are nominally maintained by taxes collected from all citizens. In addition, our elected representatives (and federal agencies) have decided that a nominal fee will be charged for use of these lands by the public. When I visit a national park, I pay a fee. When I park in a national forest, I have to have a forest pass and pay a fee for it. I likewise have to pay a fee if I want to graze my cattle on it, or log some portion of it.

It seems to me that the Hammonds had their day in a court of law and were found guilty by their peers. The BLM didn't come up with the mandatory sentencing law that people are complaining about. I assume that was legislated by Congress. The Hammonds' beef should be with their elected representatives that let them down through the legislation of supposedly draconian sentencing laws, not some federal agency tasked with maintaining the property of the people.

Finally, as a US taxpayer, I am not happy about our federal deficit. I am paying interest on the deficit every day. Why should people like Cliven Bundy get away with not paying their grazing fees? The way I see it, I am paying interest on hundreds of thousands of dollars owed me (and all other citizens) by the Bundys. Should I also demand to be able to enjoy Naitonal Park facilities without paying the entrance fee? If they don't like the size of the fee, then they should take it up with their Representative like Mr. Walden who waxes eloquent at the perfidy of the government agencies, but as a legislator, is really responsible for the situation the Hammonds are in.
Derek Volkart
Derek Volkart Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 06:30 PM
Did not Greg Walden vote for the mandatory minimums he now claims are unfair? I would like to know.
John Graham
John Graham
Jan 09, 2016 06:23 AM
Disputes can be resolved with guns, courts, mediation, civil discourse, armed militia takeovers or the most effective is in the pocketbook. "Where's The Beef". The feds can immediately cut off welfare funds and federal benefits of the ranchers involved who are a drain on our tax money. The ranchers should know that although they may be an asset to the beef industry, they are only able to do so on federal subsidy and federal handouts. Argentina and Australian beef would be eager to exploit this situation (McDonalds), as the ranchers cannot be 'profitable' without huge federal subsidies.
1. Ammon Bundy’s federal guaranteed $ 530,000 'maintenance' loan from the Small Business Administration
2. Stop US government discounts for cattle grazers vs. private landholders. The feds charges 93 percent less for cattle grazing than private landowners
3. Stop the “emergency” livestock feed program, which ranchers even get routinely in non-drought years
4. Stop giving only ranchers special huge discounts on leases of public land - fair and square for anyone - same cost
5. Stop funding federal “animal damage control” program, in which federal employees kill off the nearby predators that present a danger to cattle.
http://usuncut.com/[…]/5-government-handouts-bundys-receive
jim bolen
jim bolen Subscriber
Jan 09, 2016 09:41 AM
I do believe in the intrinsic value of Nature. The feds started to change their policies from a recourse driven policy to a more balanced approach to reflect this ethic and thus the gravy train the ranchers had all these years was suddenly reduced. The American public has driven this policy change and as the owners have the right to do so.
 I understand the ranchers frustration when their special privileges are taken away but they have no right to break the law, don't pay taxes and grazing fees and threaten peace officers
The only people who have the right to complain about "takings of their Land" is the Native American people
Jim Bolen
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 12, 2016 06:45 PM
You're right. Those Paiute got screwed for their land almost 140 years ago. I'm sure the Bundy's are cool with that, especially after hearing Cliven's rant about the people in North Las Vegas back when that couple from the standoff assassinated two police officers. who were eating lunch.
Kim Forrest
Kim Forrest
Jan 09, 2016 10:29 AM
Jim S., Crazy H., John G., Jim B.: Brilliant, cogent, accurate writing -- thank you. But that Congressman...wow...huh?...no wonder there's a communication breakdown...
Steven Towers
Steven Towers Subscriber
Jan 09, 2016 10:35 AM
Hi Folks! I'm Buzz Fledderjohn, and I'm holed up here with my buddies inside the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge's gift shop, fighting for your rights as sovereigns, whether you like it or not. I'm writing in response to the many mocking comments and sharp opinions about our actions appearing here and on other websites.

Some people have wondered if we have WiFi here. We do, and we're reading all of the stuff you folks are writing about us. You're making us all out to be a bunch of mouth-breathing, gun-humping, Bible-thumping Goobers and Gomers. Some of you are posting Brokeback Mountain-type homoerotic slumber party stories—"Assmanistan Now" has been suggested as the name of the inevitable gay porn movie spoof. We're being called "Vanilla ISIS," "Y'all Qaeda," and "Ranch Davidian."

A great deal of this needling has been pretty clever. Not much to do here, so we've been perusing all of this shrewd commentary and reading the best of it out loud to one another, just for the lulz. Some of us are particularly amused by stories that feature the Bundy brothers engaged in acts of cuddling--Ryan blushes like a schoolgirl when someone comes across a description of him scooching back against Ammon to be the inside spoon--though I personally find humor based on the fine line between camaraderie and sexuality to be stilted and tiresome. But I am getting a kick out of those "Daddy Swore an Oath" videos that mock John Ritzheimer's rambling YouTube manifesto. John, however, has threatened to murder in their sleep the next person who plays one. (The consensus here in the Malheur NWR gift shop is that John might be a couple of bubbles off-center.)

Please, keep the commentary coming. Like the man said—there's no such thing as bad publicity. We spend a few hours every day arguing the finer points of esoteric libertarian philosophy before we start repeating ourselves. Boredom is a factor, and John's constant weeping is putting everyone on edge. Your ongoing snark is a welcomed distraction.

Speaking of our libertarian beliefs, you might be surprised to learn that a sizable minority of us here are in the Steiner-Vallentyne camp of economic egalitarianism, with geoist or physiocratic views regarding the ownership of land and natural resources (i.e., we share some of the points of view of John Locke and Henry George). For example, we hold that it's illegitimate for anyone to claim private ownership of natural resources to the detriment of others. Bet that comes a surprise, huh?

Anyhooo, it's getting late in the afternoon. I'm a lister, so I'm headed outside with my Zeiss 'nocs and my spotting scope to see if there are any new birds to add to my Oregon list. I've been here for two weeks, and I know it's the dead of winter, but I still don't have a single sandpiper or phalarope! The raptors, though...oh, man! And I'm definitely staying put until the Sandhills return.

Ciao!

P.S. Send snacks. A few of us are vegan, so please keep that in mind.
Steve-o Bundy
Steve-o Bundy
Jan 09, 2016 08:46 PM
You - Mr. Fledderjohn - just won the internet. . .
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 11, 2016 11:44 AM
Well, Steve-o Bundy...I , for, one am really disappointed at Mr. Fledderjohn! Here is somebody who can write and is in the presence of a newly evolving divine right dynasty led not just by somebody who speaks with Gawd, but with somebody whose paterfamilias also speaks with Gawd!....how is that for bona fides for the Mandate of Heaven! Instead of providing some insight for us on the nature and structure of the emerging court: how does the august one style himself at this point?, Who is the Lord Chancellor or Grand Vizier?,what is the makeup of the inner council of state?, do we have a privy council as yet?, who is Master of the Horse? Is there a royal consort....and how is she styled? We know there is a Prince Ryan, but what about Dukes and such? What are the daily dynamics of the Court and the palace?....things like that....not just the mundane drivel he is turning out...I mean...come on!!
This is really important stuff for the course of history and how the sovereignty of the ruling Oligarchy might be challenged by the divine hand of destiny...this is important stuff for the populace to here.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 05:45 PM
Classic
Derek Volkart
Derek Volkart Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 06:38 PM
I'm sure not rolling through Buzz's yard. But I do want to know if you boys got the French Vanilla Creamer? I was shocked to see it on the list of needs as it seemed a little un-American. I wonder if Walden would sponsor a bill to change the name of French Vanilla Creamer to Freedom Vanilla Creamer?
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 11, 2016 12:00 PM
Oh,Yes.....Is this area to be called the Duchy of Harney in the House of God....THE STATE OF DESERET!!
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 03:30 PM
Blah, blah, blah - these morons are backwoods, ignorant, domestic terrorists. Not to mention right wing anti government nuts! Are we a nation of laws or not?
A mass show of force (surround that place with tanks if we have to), arrest them all, confiscate their weapons and prosecute them in Federal Court - then let em all rot in Leavenworth. End of discussion,
And the Oregon Congressmen sounds like an idiot.
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 05:13 PM
Doug Smith's rhetoric is inflamatory and accomplishes nothing. Progress is being made without violence. Cool heads on the side of the law will prevail because of their patience. Sheriff Dave Ward is doing an excellent job representing the law and has prevented violence. It is best this ends peacefully without a tragic confrontation and the side of the law will prevail.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 05:26 PM
Let's all hold hands and form a drum circle while we meditate and send our positive energy to the stand off and hope peace and love prevail.

If Sheriff Ward was competent this wouldn't have happened or he would have arrested them by now for trespassing on Federal property. There has already been a tragic confrontation - now end it. This requires a massive show of force to enforce the law and prevent it from happening again.
If the nuts at the Bundy standoff had been arrested for pointing automatic weapons at Federal law enforcement agents this would never have happened. The FBI and the Department of Justice should be ashamed of themselves. The entire escapade makes me puke. Cliven Bundy's half wit son needs a long prison sentence after he is arrested.
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 05:45 PM
To their credit and to the benefit of the public, Sheriff Ward, the FBI and Justice Department have shown extreme competence in this situation and done a superb job maintaining order and avoiding violence. Neither side is inciting the other to commit violence. It's impossible forecast the potential positive results by maintaining a firm but reasonable strategy dealing with these issues.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 05:52 PM
So, Doug, It does appear that Michael Parker is proposing that these insurrectionists be allowed to walk away from all the chaos and expense they are causing so that they can turn up someplace else at their leisure and endanger some more people and create yet more chaos for their pleasure. We will just have to wait for Ammon Bundy to have another vision before we know just where that might be, I guess...spoiled brats that they are.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 05:52 PM
So, Doug, It does appear that Michael Parker is proposing that these insurrectionists be allowed to walk away from all the chaos and expense they are causing so that they can turn up someplace else at their leisure and endanger some more people and create yet more chaos for their pleasure. We will just have to wait for Ammon Bundy to have another vision before we know just where that might be, I guess...spoiled brats that they are.
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 07:09 PM
Just be patient boys and everything will turn out OK. Its unlikey to happen again with these people due to the good judgment of Sheriff Ward, the FBI and the Justice Department. They've done an excellent job dealing with this situation to date and have time on their side. Inflamatory rhetoric will accomplish nothing. Give credit where credit is do.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 13, 2016 06:01 PM
Which one is the half-wit?
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 08:42 AM
Well Michael.....How about apples....methinks we have been told whats what here!!....er are dealing with a divine right mandate here and that trumps the law of a secular government!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 08:52 AM
Ben Franklin argued that, while people are entitled to" an appeal to Heaven" , the government has the right to defend itself , and the populace , against such an appeal and that only the authority of the government or the field of battle can resolve such an appeal. This was the case with the War for Independence and the Civil War....as well the uprisings against the government by the First Nations.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:01 AM
As I have said before....we all know how President Washington dealt with the Whiskey Rebellion in 1791. It was a similar situation and he personally led an army of 13,0000 real militiamen to disperse the uprising!
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:02 AM
Its not over yet. Be patient. The militants won't walk away without being arrested for laws broken. There is no reason or benefit for either side to initiate violence. Time is on the side of the law.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:17 AM
Any insight on how this relates tothe situation with Cliven Bundy....I believe that he is still at large and bragging about his defeat of the government. Why should his sons get different treatment under the law?
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:24 AM
Michael....Cliven and Ammon Bundy are operating on the authority of a commandment from Gawd...do they have the right to contravene their divine mandate and risk heavenly ire with all that might entail?
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:49 AM
.....And what happens if the Goddesses Isis and Juno....defenders of Nature....and The Goddess Athena...the protectress of Wisdom and Justice decide to challenge Gawd....the patron of White Male Supremacy....they could well bring on something really unthinkable....like Climate Change and Global Warming in retribution for centuries of abusing Gaia herself. Oh Ma!!...I hate to think about what this could bring! Drought....intense storms.....melting glaciers and icecaps.....oh mores!...oh tempore!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:06 AM
The Constitution is clear....there is no Constitutional right to insurrection or revolution....period!!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:13 AM
Dear John Derinzy...So, when are you or Congressman Walden going to respond to the questions posed for clarification of the congressman's rambling and incoherent speech? The rest of us would like to know.
John Derinzy
John Derinzy Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 10:18 AM
Mr. Hamilton, I'm not in the business of interpreting speeches for others that don't have the intellect to figure it out on their own what was said. It made absolute sense to me, with perhaps the exception of the part about rambling on shoes.

When are you Sir (or any of you for that matter) going to address what I brought up about the studies that found huge volumes of resources under Steens Mtn that our gov wants that might just be the over riding agenda here about why these ranchers are being pushed out? HCN did a poor research on the history of this area and appears to be just getting their story from teh MSN pushing a certain narrative on this.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 10:56 AM
Dear John...If you are concerned about the Federal Government leasing Steens Mountain to some extractive industry....like Rio Tinto....( and I agree by the way that, given the Federal Government's
priority of serving extractive industries interests your concern is totally legitimate) for exploitation....the best action to prevent and preclude this would be by pushing for national monument designation....which I believe Steens Mountain deserves on its own merits anyway! Grazing and hunting would still be allowed under the Antiquities Act...but mining would not be allowed...unless grandfathered in. Actually, the MSM knows...or cares....very little about the intermountain west and HCN is often in the position of informing MSM about what is going on out here. The Guardian US is the only one that makes an effort....and is doing an excellent job at it I must say.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 05:01 PM
Nicely said David WH :) Agree about Guardian as well, they and some Canada news outlets have far better news about US events than nearly US all outlets do.


David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 11:21 AM
It must have required peep stones to decipher properly!!.
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 11:35 AM
John, John, John! David, David, David. Relax! Be patient! Everything will work out OK and legally. Patience now is a virtue.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 12:47 PM
Michael....I believe the point I ...and others... are trying to make here is that these militia types are armed and dangerous....in such circumstances, overwhelming force has the best prospect of getting these insurrectionists to stand down and be taken into custody without violence...as we saw in the Whiskey Rebellion.
It must also be said that the FBI has something of a reputation for ham handed incompetence and folly (see Ruby Ridge and Waco!)....the FBI is also thoroughly infiltrated by Mormons which could be a consideration in this situation.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 13, 2016 06:09 PM
The "part about shoes" was product placement. Endorsement check is in the mail from Keen shoes.
Kim Forrest
Kim Forrest
Jan 13, 2016 09:45 AM
USFWS is now asking some of the Malheur employees to "relocate from their homes" because those employees and their families are being followed home and around town, confronted, harassed, watched from cars parked outside their houses. I will bet dollars to donuts that the FWS employees will be asked to ignore these threats, as they have over the past 4 decades.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 13, 2016 11:23 AM
Don't forget that the Bundys' buddies in Las Vegas killed a couple of police officers who were having lunch shortly after the standoff. An abundance of caution is warranted around these delusional wankers.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 12:36 PM
Francis....That is a very good point that has been on my mind as well when people talk about just how harmless and well-intentioned these guys brandishing their guns really are.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 13, 2016 06:45 PM
http://www.theblaze.com/[…]/

Video of the cop killer interviewing Ryan Bundy.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 05:06 PM
@Kim: Just a note, if they've been asked to relocate, that's the opposite of asking them to ignore the threats. :)
Kim Forrest
Kim Forrest
Jan 13, 2016 07:03 PM
Good catch! What I meant was, don't expect the federal government to stand up and press charges for the harassment they've endured... Just, uh, go find somewhere else to stay for awhile -- bum off of your friends and relatives, pay for it yourself, good luck... And if they don't, and something bad happens, "We TOLD you to leave, tsk tsk, bad employee!"
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:53 AM
Oh....They wouldn't do anything like that!....I mean, would they....really?!....NO!!!...impossible!...unthinkable!
Nothing like that has ever happened in the history of the West...this would be a total departure!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 10:11 AM
The main function of FWS...if anyone hasn't noticed...is to fight for the delisting and non-listing of endangered species at the behest of ranchers and hunters! The principled and ethical staffers in the field are under heavy pressure to comply with the mandate from the top. Anything else they manage to do is only in an attempt to do their real job around the edges! Our Federal employees in the field deserve our honor and respect in a difficult....and too often, dangerous job while being denigrated and harassed by some locals....and.even worse, by too many of our elected representatives!!!...they are a beleaguered lot who deserve our respect...not rebuke!!... is unconscionable!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 05:18 PM
 Very much so. These particular asshats' actions may not be terrorism directly, but the entire "movement" as it's called could possibly be considered such, as it is resulting in deaths, fear, suffering and division of otherwise peaceful towns.
 
The occupiers are certainly at least guilty of inciting people to violence, felony threats, and many, many other violations of law, federal, state, and local.

 I suspect the government is trying to work towards a peaceful resolution because they realize that if they go in guns'a'blazin, it's going to incite more violence. I'm not sure that any resolution would not encourage more of these pricks to do this sort of thing, at least in the long term, but as someone else pointed out Waco etc are going to weigh on the public's treatment of this.

 In any case a peaceful resolution is always preferred. I bet the gov won't move until the "militia" gets bored with what they are doing and attempts something else.

 A comment: unlike the original Bundy standoff, these guys have almost no real support. It's not going to last long any way one looks at it. If they have any brains at all, they will surrender.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 10:30 AM
Since all of us posting here are so very "ignorant"....and since he is so well -informed, would Mr. Derinzy care to enlighten us by sighting, for example, just where in the Constitution and subsequent law and jurisprudence it is stated that the authority and law of a county sheriff supersedes the authority and law of state and Federal government. Has HCN asked this question of other county sheriffs and might be able confirm if this situation has actually escaped the notice of the rest of the citizenry.
Oh, yes....we are still waiting for word from Mr. Derinzy and Mr.Walden on the follow up to that infamous speech. Thank You
Don Francis
Don Francis
Jan 13, 2016 11:20 AM
Rep. Walden will be on live radio today on Oregon Public Broadcasting - listen and call in.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 11:30 AM
Don, I am sure it will be a stellar event....and will, perhaps, elucidate and decode the stuff in his speech!
If you can listen in for those of us who are unable to do so....and, perhaps, report back on anything of insight or note....I am sure we would appreciate it. Maybe someone at HCN could monitor the interview!
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 13, 2016 06:39 PM
It will be on at 8:00 p.m., PST, tonight.

Walden wants to get "farmers back to farming, ranchers back to ranching, loggers back to logging," and, it appears, "wankers back to wanking." http://www.opb.org/[…]/
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 07:56 PM
@ Francis: thanks read it yesterday, appears to be down now? Going to go look
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 11:25 AM
if anyone following this thread has not taken the opportunity to read Rep, Walden speech posted above a few days ago by Mr,Derinzy, it would be most informative to do so. It goes a long way toward explaining why our government is so dysfunctional.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 05:25 PM
@ David WH - re: Walden speech & dysfunctional country.

Hear, hear :)D

Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 11:49 AM
An absolute disgrace and every taxpaying, law abiding citizen should be out raged and demand action:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016[…]are&smprod=nytcore-ipad
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 05:50 PM
Doug: An absolute disgrace and every taxpaying, law abiding citizen should be out raged and demand action:

 Yep. I'm sure that not even the most fervent internet supporters of this kind of thing want it happening in their town, and around their families and friends and lives.

Wake up, citizens. I'm pretty sure that this Bundy is no more mentally stable than the rest of the males in the family seem to be, but there's a lot of this sort of asshattery out there and we have to demand that it gets stopped. One way or another.

 Not demand it just of the federal government, but demand it of each other, our families, friends, colleagues, reps at all points of gov, not to support this kind of thinking. Bring it up in conversations and and inform people, ask them not to support this kind of thinking, put a different slogan on these yellow ribbons (bring our citizens out of this safe). Posters, teach the kids, etc. The kind of idiot propaganda that produces this kind of thinking comes, nowadays, primarily through media, and since free speech is a right here, and it often gets abused by the media in gloryizing this, we fight back the same way. On their own ground.

LIke forum posts :)

 and for bog's sake VOTE SOMEONE SANE IN THIS YEAR

... if you can find someone sane...

Anyway that's how it's supposed to work :D

great discussions peoples thanks I love this mag and the people around it
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 05:53 PM
There's a lot more of us than there is of them. We can win.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 03:45 PM
First...People have to get off their buts and vote even if they don't want to and don't think it makes a difference....Like we see in the midterms, if the sane people do not vote...the patients take over the asylum and take the Country further into the realm of batshit crazy!
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 05:12 PM


;
Subject: Another good read and summary of the public lands "issues".......

http://time.com/[…]/?xid=fbshare
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 07:18 PM
@ Doug S
Nice article, thanks. Yep at decades issue, but really it's been centuries now. Sigh.

 The crazy thing about it is that we're not really that densely populated mostly, not like a lot of other places. Even with the current expansion rates x10 it'd be generations before we were, barring massive refugee immigration.

 Us vs Them, as usual.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 03:47 PM
We stand to see all sorts of population dislocations all around the world as Global Warming kicks...what we are seeing at present is "just the tip of the melting iceberg" as it were!
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 07:49 PM
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 03:49 PM
...and we can expect to see more as things come apart....and white males feel their hegemony further endangered!
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 07:57 PM
Call in the National Guard, the US Marshalls, the FBI or the 101st Airborne but please end this 12 day mockery of the rule of law and defiance of the Federal Goverment.


http://www.oregonlive.com/o[…]g.html#incart_story_package
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 08:32 PM
Could just blockade them and let them get nungry. Toilet paper might get to be an issue.

Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 08:49 PM
Bundy and his followers have had their days in the spotlight. Exchanges among all of us commenters have been mostly reasonable conversations. Fortunately no violence has occurred at the refuge or in Burns. Bundy and his followers may be mistaken about how long they will be tolerated. The positive result of these events revealed how out of touch they are with the real and expanded world. Sheriff Ward has been a reasonable representative of the law and the public. I think by the end of the week the attitude of the authorities will be changed and Bundy and others will be held accountable and charged with any violations of the law. At that point Bundy and others should be taken into custody and this ordeal ended. If they resist it moves the consequences to another level and people are hurt or worse if there is a violent confrontation. Lets hope it ends peacefully without any violence.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:13 PM
Thanks Mike. Are you a Bot?
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 14, 2016 01:04 PM
Andy - What's a "Bot"?
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 08:40 PM
A bot is a piece of software designed to mimic humans, in this case on a forum. They will parse and write comments based on the content of others , they are often repetitive. No offense meant, the easiest way to find out is to ask, and see what the response is ;) Some of that software is really damned clever nowadays.

 One of the indicators of bots posting is short to the point sentences without paragraph formatting, that randomly follow through points made in other posts or used before. You've probably seen spam like that, even if was badly worded/grammar. The people writing the code are getting better at it though... ;D yikes

 

jim bolen
jim bolen Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:16 PM
Michael I wish I was as optimistic as you are but after the Bundy ranch debacle I truly wonder if justice will ever be served. After all if no arrests were made after pointed guns at peace officers, releasing cattle back to the criminals so that they could continue their destructive grazing and not enforcing binding lease agreements,I truly wonder what it will take.
It seems our government is afraid to offend groups that use the threat of violence but only have courage to incarcerate peaceful folks like Tim DeChristopher who used non violent civil disobedience to protest what turned out to be illegal gas and oil leases
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 10:02 PM
I think most of you have reasonable opinions. Truth is that we don't at this point know what happens next. My opinion is that had Sheriff Ward and others arrested the militants earlier it would have inflamed the others to a greater extent. They've had time to think about what they have done with no response from the law. By now they are wondering what comes next? They don't know because neither Sheriff Ward or the others to our knowledge have shown their
hand. The militants by know something will happen but don't know what. They've gained no ground but put on a stage show for the press and I don't think they've gained additional support. Their claims make no sense regardless of the arguments they produce and won't stand up to the law. I think they are now looking more foolish than serious and it will work
against them. Law enforcement officials who have had similar experiences have likely been tapped for their opinions about how to deal with this situation with a minimum of conflict. To date its only been a threat of words. They cut a section of wire fence and this was more symbolic than a serious act. Ultimately I think they will lose a lot more than they expected.
Not all of us have agreed in these comments. I've read all the comments and responses several times. Even though we don't all agree I can find logic in comments that are carefully thought out and expressed. Ultimately we want the right results to occur and not have anyone get hurt. Us old (80) guys tend to stop and think about things because if we are wrong and there is formidable opposition we can't move fast enough to get out of the way. We have to outsmart the opposition. This attitude can be yours too if you learn now and carry it into your older years. What happens next at the refuge. Patience is a virtue of age too!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 09:02 PM
Well said Michael.

 I don't think anybody _really_ knows what will happen next. What's obvious is that if the federal government wants to take them out with very little or no collateral civ damage, they can. Our military has been fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places for a long time. This bunch is no match for the elite units that we can call up. Or we could overfly the camp with stealth drones and sleep gas a few hundred acres. I'm sure there are hundreds of gamed scenarios in the databanks.

 So yup I agree, the gov is waiting to see if the situation will resolve itself before they move. But the end game will be the same.

 I can agree to disagree and debate happily all day if it's civil :) Good to know ya

Is there any way to sort the comments by thread?


 
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 09:53 PM
Andy -
You open all kinds of creative non-violent options to end the stand-off. We all have opinions but I'm hoping those with more experience than us can deal with this effectively without bloodshed. I was amused when I read your option of using sleep gas and putting them all to sleep. Imagine the result if all their clothes were removed and they were loaded into a big trailer. All their weapons and everything else they brought with them would be confiscated. Public embarassment can do wonders particularly if they cannot speak. Publicizing them extensively with hands and ankles shackled walking a distance 5-10 miles naked or wearing women's pink panties and chained together would quickly remove a lot of bluster and arrogance. No weapons, just protesters wearing pink panties. Let the residents of Harney County and Burns and the public line the road and offer their verbal punishment. No one gets hurt and the militants look like fools. Maybe you and I should be put in charge and turn this into a big show for all the world to see. Not a shot is fired and no one is physically injured. Public ridicule is an effective means of punishment particulary in the presence of peers. When the show ends they are all arrested and taken away.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 03:53 PM
Has anyone read ...or.. heard anything reporting what the outcome of the big meeting in Burns...other than the Oregon militia guy getting busted in the afternoon with a stolen government truck?! I have not been able to find any info whatsoever...pretty strange!
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 16, 2016 06:30 PM
The Russians tried to use sleeping gas on those Chechen terrorists at the Dubrovka theater and managed to kill many hostages.

All 40 of the attackers were killed, presumably while unconscious, with no casualties among Spetsnaz; about 130 hostages died, including nine foreigners, due to adverse reactions to the gas. All but two of the hostages who died during the siege were killed by the toxic substance pumped into the theater to subdue the militants. The use of the gas was widely condemned as heavy-handed, but the American and British governments deemed Russia's actions justifiable

There's a lot of precedents for dealing with this situation via violence. For instance:

In France, Béziers was the first place to be attacked. The crusaders reached the town on July 21, 1209. Béziers' Catholics were given an ultimatum to hand over the heretics or leave before the crusaders besieged the city and to "avoid sharing their fate and perishing with them." However, they refused and resisted with the Cathars. The town was sacked on July 22, 1209 and in the bloody massacre, no one was spared, not even Catholic priests and those who took refuge in the churches. One of the commanders of the crusade was the Papal Legate Arnaud-Amaury (or Arnald Amalaricus, Abbot of Citeaux). When asked by a Crusader how to tell Catholics from Cathars once they had taken the city, the abbot supposedly replied, Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. ("Kill them all, for the Lord knoweth them that are His.") (This oft quoted phrase is sourced from Caesarius of Heisterbach along with a story of all the heretics who desecrated a copy of the Gospels and threw it down from the town's walls. Amalric's own version of siege, described in his letter to Pope in August 1209 (col. 139), states:

While discussions were still going on with the barons about the release of those in the city who were deemed to be Catholics, the servants and other persons of low rank and unarmed attacked the city without waiting for orders from their leaders. To our amazement, crying "to arms, to arms!", within the space of two or three hours they crossed the ditches and the walls and Béziers was taken. Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt ...
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 14, 2016 12:42 AM
Thank you for reminding me about Tim and pointing out the disparity.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:19 PM
Patriots? I don't think so.

http://www.oregonlive.com/[…]/post_229.html

Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 09:31 PM
@Doug: Patriots is an overused term
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 14, 2016 12:58 PM
From yesterday's edition of Indian Country Today:
An Education In Claims Amid A Siege BY JACUQLINE KEELER Bottom Line:The armed standoff in Oregon has brought the long and unhappy history of the Northern Paiute and the Malheur Indian Reservation into sharper focus. When Ammon Bundy, son of Cliven Bundy—the Nevada rancher who faced off against Bureau of Land Management agents in an armed standoff in 2014—came to Oregon last month to seize the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, he ostensibly did so in support of fellow ranchers. Certainly he knew little about the mistreatment of the Burns Paiute Tribe by the federal government and American settlers. He might have done well to do so. In southeastern Oregon, the Burns Paiute and the other Northern Paiute tribes possess unceded claims to what was once a 1.78-million-acre reservation called the Malheur Indian Reservation. Today, the Malheur Wildlife Refuge is just a small part of that reservation. Although the tribe signed a treaty with the U.S. government in 1868, Congress never ratified it. The land remains unceded. At a press conference last week, Burns Tribal Chairperson Charlotte Roderique sternly rebuked Bundy’s occupation of her homeland. “Yesterday, the Burns Paiute Tribe joined other community leaders calling for an end to armed protestors at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge,” she said. “Armed protestors do not belong here. They are endangering our sacred sites and our children. Malheur Wildlife Refuge was a wintering gathering ground before the settlers come here.” Tribal councilman Jarvis Kennedy had even stronger words: “What would happen to Indians who did this? We, as Harney County residents don’t need some clown to stand up for us, we are hard-working people . . . we survived without them. We need them to get the hell out of here. They are jeopardizing and scaring our people.” For all his lawlessness and recklessness, Bundy has brought national media coverage of the January of 1879 forced march of 500 Paiutes from the Malheur Indian Reservation some 350 miles in knee-deep snow, many shackled two by two, to the Yakama Indian Reservation in Washington State—the Northern Paiutes’ “Trail of Tears.” One group that was force-marched by the U.S. Army simply disappeared; no one knows what happened to them. Still more died, and when a few Paiute returned to Burns, Oregon, they were considered outlaws. Many were landless, as their reservation had been opened completely to settlers and large California ranching corporations. “The one thing I’m really proud of is the tenacity of our people,” Roderique said. “Four hundred-twenty people are descendants of people who were able to get back here from Yakama. I wouldn’t drop my children off from Yakama and tell my children to walk back. They wouldn’t know what to eat, what river to follow.” The survivors lived where they could, working for white ranchers until 1928 when the Egan Land Company gave the tribe 10 acres of land just outside the city of Burns. It was the site of the old city dump that the tribal members cleaned, drilled a well and built houses on. Today the majority of the 420 tribal members live off the reservation. The tribe originally numbered 2,000 before the punishing campaigns by General Crook in the late 1860s. Those losses combined with more lives lost during the forced removal, and they have not yet fully recovered their population 137 years later. In 1969, some Paiute received a settlement for their lost land that amounted to between 28 and 45 cents per acre. The price was set at 1890 prices. “We have 10,000 acres of tribally owned land,” Roderique said, “Land in trust is 1,000 acres and there are 11,000 individually allotted land remnants of the old reservation within boundaries that was opened up to settlers.” She notes these lands are “pretty much checkerboarded, but it’s pretty much in the center of the valley. It’s hard to develop or do anything with the land when you have to get permission from 58 other people. Those lands are pretty much in limbo and administered by the BIA.” Asked about the Burns Paiute’s press conference, Ammon Bundy admitted he did not know much about their history. But he said, “That is interesting. They have rights as well. I would like to see them be free from the federal government as well. They’re controlled and regulated by the federal government very tightly and I think they have a right to be free like everybody else.” (Striking a lighthearted note amid the drama, Roderique remarked that she was “trying to compose a letter for when they return all this land to us.”)
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 14, 2016 05:51 PM
Francis.... Thank you posting this informative article. I have known bits and pieces of this...same story,and worse, all over the continent.(see: Stolen Continents by Ronald Wright ...and much in Bernard DeVoto's oeuvre). It demonstrates yet again just how dismissive our white male supremists really are even now... Greg Walden, who represents these people is ignorant of all this....and the Bundy Bunch was caught flatfooted by the Paiutes. Inconvenient since the Book of Mormon dismisses people of colour as not being pleasing to the eyes of Gawd!...and damned them for not supporting him in his fight with the Devil!
I made the point on several postings on HCN that , in fact, if their was no record of the Paiutes ceding their land to the Federal government, all of the lands in question do, legally, still belong to them...fat chance getting it back!!
I have noted, also, records that show that, under pressure from "hostile Oregon ranchers", the Grant administration removed half of the reservation granted to the Paiutes earlier and handed it over to the local rancher in an effort to appease them.
Kate Schimel
Kate Schimel Subscriber
Jan 14, 2016 01:19 PM
Hey folks, thank you for the thoughtful and generally polite comments in this thread. I understand it's a divisive topic. I appreciate how civil you have kept it. However, please focus your comments on the content of the article or of other commenters' arguments, rather than the commenters themselves. We require personal logins, which means the folks you are talking to, are real people. As such, I'd ask that you maintain the same mores you might in a face-to-face conversation. Anyway, thanks for commenting and for giving me plenty to think about today. Best, Kate Schimel, assistant editor
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 07:13 PM
Thank you for those facts Francis. I have visited the Sand Creek and Bear River massacre sites. This country has an horrendous and shameful legacy with native Americans. As I have learned, not from history books in school, but from reading and being curious, this country was founded based on genocide and slavery. And after watching the Republican debate last night, it isn't hard to understand how.
Thanks for trying to keep this discussion on track Kate.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 07:51 PM
 We're hardly the only "race" who has done things like this: history is littered with genocide and slavery from every color to every color. white caucasians just got particularly good at it for a number of centuries. Even native american tribes at times enslaved other tribes.

 This kind of behavior is human. We've been slowly coming to more enlightened thinking as the centuries go by and we advance in our knowledge of how societies and cultures work (and shed more and more of our superstitions) but we are still just slightly modified violent apes, as we constantly prove all over the world, every day, in more ways than one can count. Even people who are otherwise calm and normal for decades can go apesh** in a certain situation. It's in our genes.

 Any solution to this is likely to be something that won't happen for (or will take) many, many generations, and be something we can't possibly imagine. In the meantime we fight lots of battles, win, lose.

  Good and evil exist only in people, and in so many combinations and variations it's impossible to imagine. As a long term view I think that is the best one. The only real way to combat it is individual by individual, in any case. Or action by action, perhaps...

@ Doug, if you ever come out to see Wounded Knee, I live out that way.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 04:42 PM
Interesting you should make this observation, Andy. All these conversations you folks has caused me to reflect on the fact that a major occupation of my life has been the effort to attempt to sort out what is it that is so dangerously wrong with our species ( Homo rapiens)...certainly some seriously faulty wiring ....unintelligent design, perhaps, as Richard Dawkins has said facetiously! Clearly some inchoate primal insecurities with very early tribal power struggles that resulted in the invention of Gawd/Gawds and religion the provide legitimacy the authority figures which evolved into justifications to attack other tribes that failed to accept the supremacy of the first tribes Gawds. You are right, Andy, as a history major, i found the same social dynamics repeated all through the course of history and over all cultures around the world of which we have records. Greed, rape, rapine and murder is the human style!...It is a Greek tragedy ( the Greeks new all this stuff and were fascinated with the dynamic also!) we are a failed species and the causes of our ultimate self-destruction are hard wired in our genes! Over the course of history, a small percentage of a given culture worked on themselves ("Know Thyself!) to alter their own thinking and worked to alter their actions...even as they knew that they could not really change the course of civilizations as they rose and fell. I consider these people to comprise the subspecies Homo rapiens sapiens!! I learned that civilizations are fragile entities that can be reduced to shambles by fate and fortune far easier than those whpo rail and batter at them ( such as our present anarchic and nihilistic Wingnut Republicants who tell government has no legitimacy and laws they don't like need not obeyed. They think they can rule by the gun...forgetting that someone is always meaner and bigger and more clever than you.... who can take that gun from you and rule by his fiat....that is the state of nature that people like Hobbes wrote about!
After decades of pondering all this and the supposed advancements....I cannot be so optimistic...technical and scientific advancements have far outpaced our the fact of our wiring! The logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead...and the Red Queen is running in place cannot catch up with herself! "We are but rays of sunlight fading in the grass" ....the Anthropocene will end and another species will succeed us in The Greatest Show on Earth!
I always come back to Percy Bysshe Shelley's profound "Ozymandias"...you can find it in the frontpiece of Marc Reisner's "Cadillac Desert"....worth a read now and again!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:44 PM
@ homo rapiens

As was so eloquently said by Carl Sagan

“You're an interesting species. An interesting mix. You're capable of such beautiful dreams, and such horrible nightmares. You feel so lost, so cut off, so alone, only you're not. See, in all our searching, the only thing we've found that makes the emptiness bearable, is each other.”

Optimism is faith of a sort, and pessimism defeatist in some ways. Balance seek you ;)


David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 11:34 AM
As Ben Franklin said " Yes, I am a pessimist!...That way I am never unfavourably surprised!"
 Actually, Andy, you might be surprised to hear that " One side of me is filled with brightness, no matter what I might say"....I once had a Mormon lady say of me to a friend...."He can't be an Atheist!....he laughs and smiles too much!"
Not to fret about old Dave...I don't confuse recognition of Samara with happiness...I think the Dali Lama may have said something to thank effect!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 03:27 PM
I meant to add (..if I had a brain, I would be dangerous!)....that Epicurus and Lucretius would argue that , knowing yourself and the nature of things and ones place in it...tends to set one free . it seems to me that that is the overriding world view of traditional Native Americans as well....as opposed to the Christian mandate for the domination over the world...and their fellow man!
The concept is far from empty....to understand that we are part of the Natural world all around us....that we, literally, are the stuff that stars are made of and cannot control and dominate everything does not constitute an impotence or emptiness at all to me.
...and that should have been Dalai Lama...thank you keyboard, for that!
 By the way I ordered up one of those K800s you recommended, Andy!!

se or emptinesss
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 07:57 PM
Andy, I have been to Wounded Knee. So sad but thanks for the invitation.
I hope this standoff ends soon. Like the Montana Freemen from the late 90s, these anti-government nuts are going to spend a long time in a Federal Prison.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 08:13 PM
Good. WK the first time I saw it reminded me of the photographs of the mass graves of Nazi Germany during the holocaust. Different scale, as the Nazis killed everyone, most of the deaths that came from white men spreading across the continent were from disease, of which there was little understanding at the time, but the massacres and atrocities and abuse were enough on both sides to warrant the term genocide (or as it's been put before, "war to the knife"). Enough that nobody can or will ever forget.

 The history there is only visible inside's one head, really, one's understanding of what happened and why, although the museum and grounds are great, I have found that everyone's point of view of it is different in some subtle way. It's been ten years now since I visited (although I'm but a few hours away); hard to bring myself back to that place.

 The Feds better decide what they are going to do pretty quickly. I doubt very much that lawE can evict them without casualties short of things the public won't like anyway.
Crazy Horse
Crazy Horse
Jan 15, 2016 09:02 PM
Great discussion. Coincidentally, I re-watched Ken Burns' "The West" recently with my sons. It was sobering to watch how the country I love was built on such tragedy and broken promises. This current saga taught me about the Paiute. I also learned in the documentary about how the Nez Perce were evicted from the Wallowa Valley and about the broken promises that resulted in them never being able to return to their homeland.

I've made sure that my sons learn about the history of the country, both the good and the bad. I have never visited Wounded Knee, but had the privilege to travel to Prague a few years ago for work, and I took the opportunity to take the night train to Krakow to visit Auschwitz. Needless to say, it was a life changing visit.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 10:32 PM
Crazy Horse, i re-watched the Ken Burns excellent series "The West" this summer. It was heart breaking and should be madatory viewing in every school in this country as part of a US History course. Good for you for watching it with your sons. They will be better US citizens for having watched it.
Chief Joseph was a great human being and his story and the plight of the Nez Perce is tragic.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:54 PM
@DougSmith: re : The West series

Agreed, that was great, I cried, and not just at the story, but at the "whose truth?" mentality nowadays that it shows up. I wonder how many students would see... forty years ago when I learned this stuff, and then relearned it through books, few of my fellow students saw.

 I need to rewatch that, used to do a docuvid a weekend, lately working wekends, mostly :()

 
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 17, 2016 10:15 AM
If you can lau your hands on a copy of "Stolen Continents...The Americas Through Indian Eyes Since 1492" by Ronald Wright...it's from 1992 so it will be tough to find...Abebooks might work! It is excellent and I have never read anything quite lkike it!
Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Jan 16, 2016 08:47 AM
It's really sad reading some of the comments on this article and other articles related to this topic.

In fact, it is really SCARY how many of you commenters are calling these people "terrorists" and suggesting violence and force should be used against them. It is terrifying how much respect many of you have for an overtly tyrannical and criminal system. There is a lot more at play around this "occupation" than is making the news.

The People created their local governments (cities and counties); the counties got together and created states. The states got together and created the Union - the United States. Through simple reasoning, one should come to the conclusion that the created can never be greater than its creator - why do we (the creators) cede so much authority to our creation several steps down the line? Take your emotional blinders off and think for a second!

The government is of the People, by the People, and for the People. The county sheriff is the HIGHEST authority on the land and that is not disputed. The People of the county are the rightful owners to the public land and public resources of their given county. The government of this (former) Republic was designed to serve the People, not suppress them and steal from them. Ever ask your county commissioner where your share of your counties resource royalties is? Maybe you should?
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 04:59 PM
Thomas!...Where on Earth did you ever get the idea that the county sheriff is "the highest authority in the Land!" That statement is disputed , I am afraid!....can you cite for s the passage in the Constitution!...he is not the Laird my lad!
You are correct that we are no longer Republic...we are a Plutocracy...albeit with some republic type mythologies still hanging around....just like in ancient Rome (where SPQR hung around wel past its shelf life!)
Actually, Thomas , the way it worked was this: the KIngs of France and Britain issued royal charters to monopolies created by friends of theirs who offered the monarchy a cut in the profits. These companies then came to North America, killed and/or displaced the people First Nations and created colonies. Blacks were then captured in Africa and forcibly shipped to the "New World" where they were sold into slavery by and to friendly white guys who merely wanted to improve their prospects.
There is some variation in this patter, but this is the basic template!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:58 PM
"The county sheriff is the HIGHEST authority on the land and that is not disputed."

 Err, it's never been seriously UNdisputed, not in the US since the US was formed.

With respect (note that Kate, being respectful, lol ;) ) you have no idea what you are talking about, your entire post is a lot of uninformed nonsense. Are you one of the people up at the retreat?

 
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 17, 2016 10:20 AM
Why is it that Kate never calls out these wankers about being respectful?!
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 09:04 AM
Thomas, you are ptitifully uninformed. Just because someone lives on the prarie, it does not exempt them from following the laws of the United States as you shall see when these lawless anto government buffoons are arrested and serve long sentences in a Federal prison.
Google Montanta Freemen and see see how far they got trying to ignore the Federal goverment.
These idiots are domestic terrorists - plain and simple and collectively may have an IQ of 70 if you graded on the curve.
I suggest you take a course on the Constitution so you won't sound so clueless about the country you live in.
If this country has too much of tyrannical governmnet for you, move to Afganistan. You can do whatever you want there.
Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Jan 16, 2016 09:21 AM
I'm sorry you see things that way Doug.

I haven't researched the Montana Freemen in depth, but does that situation not reinforce the idea that the feds are tyrannical - a group was forced into submission. That sounds like America right? Land of the FREE and home of the brave?

The real fear we have as a nation or county is mindsets as yours.

Thanks for the ironic suggestion, but I have studied the constitution. Just because somebody was born on this land mass does not make them a subject to a political organization (ie US gov). I don't want to derail this thread, but I urge you to be more cautious as you travel your narrow path.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 09:56 AM
No, Thomas, the feds are not tyrannical - they enforce the laws of this country and being an unedcuated backwoods red neck does not make you exempt,
If that last sentence is some kind of implied threat, I can assure you that stupidity does not frighten or intimidate me.
Remember Thomas, ignorance is not bliss.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:07 PM
Actually, Thomas, I think that you will find, if you check, that one thing all countries have in common, is that they tend to demand that anyone living within its boundaries...citizen or not...is subject to its government and laws...it is called sovereignty!
What has happened to our schools,anyway!!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 11:54 AM
Kate...Thomas Arvensis is definitely making...a not so veiled ....threat to Doug in the above...I think most any outside observer would agree about this!
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 20, 2016 05:13 AM
An acquaintance of mine, Dr. George Tiller, was murdered by one of the Montana Freemen. He had previously been convicted of transporting bombs intended for blowing up women's health clinics, but a public defender got him off on appeal after his probation was revoked.

The revelation that Scott Roeder, the alleged murderer of Dr. George Tiller, belonged to an anti-government, white separatist group called the Montana Freemen might seem like an unlikely twist. After all, such groups are generally thought of as either indifferent to the issue of abortion or actively enthusiastic about its potential for reducing the nonwhite population. As it turns out, however, the journey from radical racialist to anti-abortionist isn't as unusual as you might think.

Roeder's connections to the right-wing fringe began well over a decade ago, according to the Kansas City Star. His ex-wife, Lindsey, said that after a few years of marriage, Roeder became increasingly involved with the Freemen and its anti-government ideology. "The anti-tax stuff came first, and then it grew and grew. He became very anti-abortion…That's all he cared about is anti-abortion. 'The church is this. God is this.' Yadda yadda." Noting that she vehemently disagreed with her ex-husband's views, Lindsey Roeder told the Star that he moved out in 1994. "I thought he was over the edge with that stuff," she said. "He started falling apart. I had to protect myself and my son."
Louis F Good
Louis F Good Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 11:04 AM
Rather than join the mud slinging, I have the following observation: Has anyone else noted how Bundy and his group are very carefully using their families, including children, as shields? Now that's being brave, hiding behind your wife and kids! Just like ISIS and Al Qaeda using civilians as shields. But even those groups don't use their own families. These people are pathetic cowards in addition to everything else they "stand for".

Truly pitiful individuals, let alone as a group. Gutless wonders.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:10 PM
Louis, It is a well-known procedure amon the new patriot classes!
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 16, 2016 06:05 PM
I haven't heard if they have kids at Malhuer, but they do have women. One of the "occupation supplies" they're begging for is tampons, by the way.

They're getting mail somewhere because some folks have been sending them appropriate "supplies" such as double ended dildoes and glitter. That will be hard to top.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 07:20 PM
The USPS motto, rain, snow, terrorists. Thanks to 'em too :)
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 11:40 AM
Is this mudslinging!?...I thought it was a pie fight between Lemon Meringue and Cow pies!
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 11:24 AM
Louis, of course they are. These are anti government show boating, blow hards and cowards soon to see the inside of a federal prison.
They have vastly underestimated the publics tolerance for criminal hostage taking of a federal facility that belongs to all of us.
They make me sick. Good riddance to all of them and I hope they enjoy Leavenworth or maybe the Super Max prison in Colorado where the Unibomber is wasting away.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 16, 2016 06:01 PM
They are most unlikely to wind up at the Florence ADX (Supermax). If anything, they'll get a stay at a tennis camp and a big fine.
Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Jan 16, 2016 04:43 PM
Lol, grow up! There was no threat insinuated in my comments. I was suggesting that you look at the bigger picture rather than blindly follow main stream media and what your government is telling you.

"Uneducated, back wood redneck"? Wow, just wow. I feel sorry for you; honestly. Are you insinuating that I am ignorant? If you cannot recognize this obvious tyrannical course we are headed down, ignorance actually is bliss. Enjoy it:)



Their families are there because they are being entirely peaceful! They don't want a fight or violence! They are not using their kids and wives as shields - you guys are really grasping.

I would like to know, sincerely, how have these occupiers harmed you? What makes you so angry with them? I want to honestly know why some people are so pissed off.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:21 PM
Thomas...because the public resents seeing its property seized...Laws (that the rest of us obey) openly flouted....the forms and processes of our civilization torn and frayed...our employees threatened and disrespected....innocent local residents daily routines in chaos and disarray....fences torn down...cars stolen...guns brandished about in our collective faces...just for starters!
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:28 PM
Really, "the main stream media," that's all you got?
Your terrorist are cowards and if taking over a Federal facility is something you can't understand. Then you are sad and pathetic. Lord help this country survive the utter stupidity of its citizens.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 06:15 PM
People are calling you ignorant because you cannot respond in any other way than confrontationally.

Not an insult, just an observation.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 07:24 PM
Mr Thomas, with all due respect, you are the one who needs to grow up.

 Men who use their families as shields against those who dispute their actions are cowards, ok?

Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Jan 17, 2016 09:42 PM
From Doug's link:

"Nor was everyone in Oregon there because of an antigovernment agenda. “I do not understand the culture,” said Kristi Jernigan, 44, from Tennessee, who was among the women in the compound’s kitchen feeding the occupation. Ms. Jernigan said she had little interest in politics and had arrived only “to spread love.” “You’d be surprised at all the different people here,” she said.

Doesn't sound like these guys forced this woman to show up and be a shield…
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 17, 2016 01:11 AM
I note that an "occupier," 61-year-old Kenneth Medenbach, stole a federal vehicle at the refuge and drove it to Burns has been busted. He has done time for drunk driving and driving with a suspended or revoked license before, and somehow, has a condition of probation that he cannot be driving on federal property. Has he harmed me? No, I haven't spent any time there since a couple of nights last June. But I'm glad I'm not there now, given the behavior of the "occupiers."

"Boys will be boys," I guess.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:37 PM
Thanks David, excellent comments. The rule of law is all that seperates us from anarchy.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 07:31 PM
Yup. And the Rule of Law needs to be open and understandable to all. Which we have failed at, obviously :(

David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 03:51 PM
The most obvious tenants are pretty clear to ,most of us citizen...obey the laws of the land or face the consequences.....and seizing government property is probably going to result in a certain amount of disapprobation...except from your Fan Club and Groupies!
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 17, 2016 10:52 AM
Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Jan 17, 2016 09:49 PM
Anyway, I know that nobody here agrees with me, but I have some sincere and honest questions for those of you who wish to see these people arrested and thrown in jail; or killed by government agents:

When comparing this "occupation" with the Occupy Wall Street movement and the Black Lives Matter movement what differences are there (aside from having legal weapons)? Were you calling for the OWS and BLM people to be arrested and locked away? I would appreciate some honest answers, because from the information I have the OWS and BLM movements involved people occupying public and private property, refusing to comply with law enforcement, and they actually did get violent and a lot of PRIVATE property was destroyed.

I'm not certain I 100% agree with what these guys in Oregon are doing and there are some certainly questionable individuals involved; however, I respect them for standing up for something they believe in. They have been completely peaceful and nobody has been harmed. That is most important.

Please save your personal attacks. They may inflate your ego, but they are not constructive and honestly don’t bother me. I’m sincerely curious as to how you guys might differentiate these “occupations”, or not.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 20, 2016 05:07 AM
This hasn't been completely peaceful. These bozos have been duking it out amongst themselves, and they've been deliberately intimidating townspeople, following their kids home from school in vehicles, etc. I suspect the majority of them are common criminals. I've found "rap sheets" for many of them including a couple who have been charged with kidnap. You're being extremely naive.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 08:21 AM
Nobody advocated for anybody to kill anybody. I assume that is your anti goverment paranoia kicking in.

Occupy Wallstreet was a peaceful protest in a public park. What this has to do with Black Lives Matter is beyond me except I am sure it offends your white supremist sensibilities and offends you as does our black president.

No one gets away with an armed takeover of a federal facility in this country.

Those imbeciles are looking at long prison sentences. And not soon enough for me.
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 09:02 AM
Patience has revealed the occupiers and their supporters are limited in what they understand about government. The "wait and see" approach by law enforcement has revealed far more about these people than we realized previously. This has been productive in that there is only a pretence of organization and feeble and ignorant attempts to project a reasonable argument for support. Are they dangerous? Carrying weapons and dressing up in military costumes is threatening as they intend it to be. The longer this continues the more foolish they look and how inept they project any semblance of a responsible position. The consequences for the occupiers is proving how ignorant they are. Followers are wannabes seeking attention. Eventually the law will come down on them and their foolish ways will cause each significant personal difficulty which they rightfully deserve. Laws have been broken and they will be punished. Just be patient for awhile longer.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 11:48 AM
OK, Michael, i basically agree with the jist of those comments....but I do fail to comprehend why they are allowed to come and go as they please with intervention of any sort! I have been through that area on several occasions and it seems to me that roadblock and checkpoints could fairly easily be set up at a safe distance on the facing highway in both approaches! I have seen no one making a comment about this....and I have inquired if, perhaps, the Guardian Us reporter on the scene might be able to ask the authorities in charge about this.
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 02:18 PM
Those are good questions David and I've had the same questions. Your solution seems so logical and simple. Why not implement as you describe? Have the occupiers actually been ordered to surrender and place their weapons aside? The assumption is that authorities won't allow the occupiers to leave and go on their way but we don't know at this point. It's more "wait & see" with no defined goal. I believe there is a grand strategy by authorities with several options depending on how the occupiers respond. Listening to interviews of the occupiers its apparent they have limits to their abilities to understand. That could be dangerous to a non-violent outcome. I could be entirely wrong how I perceive this situation and how it can be resolved. Is Bundy capable of being rational as long as he appears to be the leader? Will there be internal dissention among the occupiers to the extent that they will implode with no
apparent direction or leadership? I don't know. There are a lot of unknowns presently that could influence the outcome. It is best that Bundy and his band of malcontents don't do anything to initate a violent confrontation because they will lose. Those of us who have watched this situation closely since it began have learned about an element in our population that have a bizarre but limited understanding of U.S. history and government. I still don't think
it is wise for authorities to initiate a full-force combat resolution. I may be naive too but am trying to remain objective. Others who have offered objective comments with their own opinions have been helpful for me to have a better understanding. I hope it is resolved without violence and the occupiers held responsible and charged with their crimes.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 03:44 PM
Michael, I could not agree with you more!...Which is why finding ways and means to make their stay less comfortable has seemed , to me, the way to go. When I learned early on that they were free to come and go anywhere they wanted, I was shocked having never heard of such a thing before! ...and allowing addition people to arrive at the compound sounded like complete folly to me...how was this to make the situation better? ...They now have greater force than they started with...Ammon has been allowed to leave the compound and go to other states to advise other militias on how to do what he is...and then return! OMG! This will never end if this is our best law enforcement strategy I am incline to think...they even get mail and deliveries!! Heat, water, food, electricity, sex, reinforcements computer and web access, phones what more do they need....one guy was even bragging about just how cushy the accommodations are at the Refuge than at the Bundy Bunch range in 2014...certainly not exactly Valley Forge for this set of Patriots! They aren't going to leave until its time in the Spring to move their cattle up onto BLM and Forest Service land at their various ranches for the Summer!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 04:01 PM
..and, if they don't leave, will the government be willing to put in a pool , putting greens and a tennis court to complete the roughing it version of Club Met...and to appease the poor sods' offended sensibilities!
Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Jan 18, 2016 06:58 PM
I am not a lawyer and many of you claim that these guys are breaking the law.

What do you expect these "occupiers" should be charged with?

Assembling on public property?
Exercising free speech?
Possessing legal firearms?
Disagreements?

Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 18, 2016 09:12 AM
Agreed Michael but not soon enough for me. I hope the full force of the Federal government lands on all of them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016[…]p;smid=nytcore-iphone-share
Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Jan 18, 2016 09:19 AM
As I assumed...degrade to personal attacks of zero validity. Wow, we have never met, but you totally figured me out. I am a white supremacist and don't like the president because he is black? Such solid logic and deductive reasoning...I don't agree with you; therefore, I am racist. ??lol

Nobody in Oregon is advocating any violence. It is a peaceful protest on public property. However, others have been advocating violence against them. Why?

What these "occupations" have in common is that they are people assembling and standing up for something they believe in. What I'm trying to figure out is why you are calling the Oregon group "domestic terrorists" and would not label OWS and BLM the same. There are countless reports outlining the violence and destruction of property from participants of OWS and BLM. What violence or property damage has the Oregon group carried out?

sean cruz
sean cruz
Jan 18, 2016 11:24 PM
When they are on the ranch doing what ranchers do, then it is fair to describe the Bundy mob as “ranchers” doing “ranching”, but that is not what they are doing in Oregon, and “occupying” does not come close to describing what is going on at Malheur.

I think that people become active terrorists when they make the decision to kill other people indiscriminately at some future date should certain conditions come to pass, and then set in motion acts likely to bring about those conditions.

That's when they cross the line, not later when they pull that trigger or set off that bomb, or commit arson on either public or private land, or when they take over a community weapons-ready, self-authorized to shoot to kill.

There is nothing but a pretense of "peacefulness" about them, and very little of that. They bring the guns to intimidate the locals, hoping to draw in a law enforcement response, while letting everyone know that they will shoot whoever they have a mind to, claiming self-defense, and believing that they are going to get away with whatever it is that they do, as they have so far.

The Bundys and their supporters have already declared war on America. They are charter members of the Ghosts of Timothy McVeigh Fan Club, Mormon Chapter, and as long as they are out in public carrying weapons they are a threat to public safety, the same as any other terrorist organization or similar clot of Fever Dream religious sociopaths.
Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Jan 19, 2016 12:40 AM
You've made a lot of assumptions based on nothing but your preconceived notions. You are a scary individual!
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 19, 2016 02:53 PM
There's a lot of validity to Sean's comment. I've been an advocate for patience to avoid bloodshed but thought this prolonged inactivity by law enforcement would eventually lead to an appropriate solution and set a precedent. After three weeks the Federal authorities have had time to assemble enough evidence against Bundy and the other perpetrators to charge them with a multitude of serious criminal activities. With convictions these people will serve long and deserved sentences. The benefit will be to keep this from occuring again at other Federal facilities throughout the U.S. This didn't happen previously with Cliven Bundy in Nevada. Events in the Malheur Refuge now are the result. The Feds are not walking away from this but we have wondered for a long time why there has been no visible efforts against
these lawbreakers. The answer is likely to come soon when Federal warrants are issued and we can better understand reasons for the delay. Sean's descriptions are accurate that "There is nothing but a pretense of peacefulness about them, and very little of that. They bring the guns to intimidate the locals, hoping to draw in a law enforcement in response, while letting everyone know that they will shoot whoever they have a mind to, claiming self-defense, and believing that they are going to get away with whatever it is that they do, as they have so far."

Their day of reckoning will occur soon. Hopefully innocent people will not be hurt or worse. The Feds had a grand plan for dealing with these people and the logic will be revealed. Over the past three weeks these exchanges in our comments have expanded my own understanding. I think patience has been necessary and the pay-off will soon be revealed.
Thanks Sean for your insightful and enlightening comment.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 19, 2016 09:29 AM
They are all going to be arrested, prosecuted and sent to a Federal prison to serve long punishing prison sentences. And that Mormon Moron Cliven Bundy is next.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 19, 2016 10:27 AM
Now, the protesters are going a step further, asking local ranchers to sign their names to documents rejecting the U.S. Bureau of Land Management's authority.

"When you commit to stand, I promise you the angel of heaven will stand with you," occupation spokesman Robert "LaVoy" Finicum told the crowd.

Finicum announced earlier in the day that the protesters had recruited two ranchers – one from Oregon and one from New Mexico -- to stop paying grazing fees, but he and the other occupation leaders spent more than three hours in Crane trying to convince more people to join the cause.

The signing ceremony – now set for Saturday -- is "a once in a lifetime opportunity," Ammon Bundy said. The next time such an opportunity arises, he said: "It'll be war."
jim bolen
jim bolen Subscriber
Jan 20, 2016 12:28 PM
This stills goes back on not making a stand at Bundy's ranch where actions were more egregious and the local law enforcement did a disappearing act. and now we have this in Oregon. Michael I hope your right in your assessment that their will be accountability.
Thomas your view of supremacy of county Sherifs would result in Anarchy and vigilantism. My political perspective is obviously different then yours but sheriffs are basically right wing and are unwilling to enforce federal laws and regulations. We could stop this law breaking if we had the local sheriffs leading the way and enforcing federal laws. .It's not their jobs to decide what laws to enforce. Thomas this goes both ways and in the case of my town we don't enforce federal immigration laws
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 20, 2016 02:40 PM
Jim...Actually the Bundy Bunch is practicing good old 19th century Anarchy and Vigilantism...the main difference being that in those days it was practiced in the service of their land baron posses!....instead of their own raging , Gawd mandated egos!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 20, 2016 02:47 PM
Given the increasing precariousness of the situation....I think its is time,perhaps, for HCN to send its DC Correspondent off to knock on the door at the Interior Department and see if she can get Sally Jewell to enlighten us on her secret plan to deal with this festering situation...and when, exactly, we might expect to begin to see some movement on this! Now!!...That would be a real scoop!!...and HCN would be a star!
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Jan 20, 2016 02:50 PM
Bundy and his gang will be held accountable by the law. In every contact with the Bundy gang innocent people have been present. If there was a violent confrontation at a public meeting the innocent would be in serious jeopardy. The longer this continues the list of serious charges is accumulating against each individual. Patience was likely a calculated strategy by law enforcement authorities to accumulate more charges to put these people away in Federal prisons for many years. When the hammer of the law is dropped they will know they got much more than they expected. Let’s hope they don’t hurt innocent people. These are not rational people and that is a serious threat when they realize their game has ended and they lost.
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 20, 2016 11:05 PM
The writers here are correct. Though I've met a lot of extremely professional law enforcement over the last 40 years,, there are bozos amongst them. Richard Mack, for instance, has regularly been hooked up with them and Joe Arpaio is quite comfortable in the company of white supremacists.

Blodshed won't solve any problems.

Ryan Bundy got busted in Cedar City, utah, as a result of his kicking a federal police dog that was accompanied by a handler at the Bundy ranch. They got an indictment and busted him there well after the Nevada confrontation. He resisted arrest and they added that charge to it.
Fred Bell
Fred Bell Subscriber
Jan 20, 2016 11:16 PM
I can understand our government's hesitation to engage in violate confrontation with the occupiers. It probably is better to exercise a bit of caution and patience and see if the effects of time will diminish the enthusiasm and will of this misguided insurgency. What I don't understand is why our government is letting Bundy et al. have total control of the message. He stands before the press everyday explaining his grievances, and yet we hear no counterpoint to his impossible demands, historical inaccuracies and legal misinterpretations. As we have seen many times before a lie repeated often enough has a way of becoming an accepted truth. After the Bundy's standoff in Bunkerville, Nevada two years ago we heard very little opposing messages from our government. It would be very interesting and maybe even helpful if representatives from agencies such as the BLM, USFWS, U.S. Attorney's Office, etc, were also giving daily press conferences at the gates of Malheur NWR.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 21, 2016 10:04 AM
Finally even the Governor of Oregon has had enough. She called on the Justice Departments to end the seige. 20 days is toi long. A show of force and mass arrests should happen immediatey or this criminal act wil be copied by other simpletons.
Kim Forrest
Kim Forrest
Jan 21, 2016 08:47 PM
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Jan 21, 2016 10:26 PM
Great story. I knew the Hammonds had problems, but not that they were such long-time dirtbags.
Kim Forrest
Kim Forrest
Jan 22, 2016 06:25 AM
There are at least a couple more refuge managers that the Hammonds have threatened to kill.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 22, 2016 08:03 AM
Thanks for the links Kim. Hopefully there will be action soon and they will all serve long prison sentences. The whole lot of them are ignorant criminals.,
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Mar 01, 2016 05:22 AM
Francis:
Please don't respond to trolls. It's what they want, to cause disruption and get comments deleted, by using infantile behavior to draw others in. Don't descend to their level, not worth it :)
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Mar 01, 2016 06:17 AM
Okay. So bear scat is not worthless, but in fact, because they eat anadromous fish in particular, contributes the phosphorous to fertilize plants that is necessary for healthy growth.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Mar 01, 2016 08:01 AM
Indeed.
Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Mar 08, 2016 09:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLHiU8gYWY

Cold blooded murder. This breaks my heart.

All you fools towing the government line better wake up and realize what is going on. This is sickening. Had this been a black teenager there would be riots in the streets and the media calling for persecution of these thugs in uniform. Pay attention people!
Michael Parker
Michael Parker Subscriber
Mar 08, 2016 10:04 PM
Finicum was a criminal who threaten law enforcement officers. It is unfortunate there was loss of life but this is a lesson for others who take the law into their own hands. Hopefully others will not follow Finicum's foolish behavior and suffer similar consequences.
Thomas Arvensis
Thomas Arvensis
Mar 08, 2016 10:24 PM
Cognitive dissonance - what a pain in the ass.
Mark Rozman
Mark Rozman Subscriber
Mar 09, 2016 05:56 AM
Criminal is as criminal does. Pay your grazing fees or leave your cattle at home. Welfare ranching is quickly becoming a thing of the past. Happy hunting.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Mar 09, 2016 07:51 AM
People, you can see the entire press conference video, UNALTERED, including explanations, here:

http://www.rawstory.com/[…]/

 Warning, it is very long, and might be tedious for some people who won't listen to the explanations but merely want their bias confirmed ;)

 Mr Arvensis, the "had this been a black teenager" right-wing spew wore thin quite a while back for most people. It's a racist, bigoted and not very intelligent comment; the circumstances between what happened at Malheur and some of the black shootings are entirely different. Using it here will gain you no points with anyone.

Cheers
Tom Schweich
Tom Schweich Subscriber
Mar 09, 2016 08:04 AM
Hey! Thomas! We sheeple are not TOWING the line, we're TOEING the line. I mean .... I mean .... if you're gonna take a shot at us, at least take the correct shot!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland Subscriber
Mar 09, 2016 08:25 AM
I don't know Tom, the mental image of "towing the government line" is interesting. 3000 km long line of people with this HUGE hawser haulin' away... ;)
  Problem I see is, while most of us are hauling it towards the future, there's a bunch working against everyone else, hauling it back towards the ugly past...
Francis Smith
Francis Smith
Mar 09, 2016 06:55 PM
Thanks to Andy for posting the URL for the video. The split screen, which synchronized the drone video from the cell phone video taken by Shawna Cox is quite extraordinary. Finicum repeatedly told the OST, "Shoot me in the head." When he faced the trooper who was trying to take him down with a non-lethal taser and, for the third time, went for his semiautomatic Ruger in his jacket, he was shot almost simultaneously three times in the back. This was clearly "suicide by cop." The OSP officers were remarkably restrained. LaVoy wanted to die because his home life was coming apart and he thought he would become a martyr and go to heaven. If this sounds like ISIS, you're getting the picture.