I have a lot in common with the Bundys. Here’s what I’d like to say to them.

 

Like the Bundy brothers now illegally occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Oregon, I'm a lifelong rural Westerner, and I believe that if I were to talk with them, we'd most likely find we have a lot in common.

There's the way our lives were shaped by the land, for instance. I was born in Nevada, and I grew up and now live in southwestern Idaho. Though my family worked as carpenters, we lived on small farms where we raised cows and grew hay for the winter. Like the Bundys and many of their allies, I come from hard working, blue-collar folks.

From them I learned to love the land, especially the Northwestern high desert. I've hunted the uplands of eastern Oregon from Juntura to Rome, and from Leslie Gulch to the Imnaha. Much of that country is open range where cattle graze. Thanks to ranchers, I've watered my bird dogs at troughs where ranchers had enhanced a spring, benefitting both cattle and wildlife.

A group of mule deer bucks moves across Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. There is no big game hunting on the refuge, so deer abound.

I imagine that if the Bundys and I sat down over coffee, we'd start trading stories about our early years. Pretty quickly, though, our differences would emerge. They'd insist that taking over a wildlife refuge is speaking for "the people" – Westerners frustrated by the federal government. I couldn't let that stand.

Want to read more of our coverage of the standoff and what led to it? Find it here.

I'd respond by saying: That wildlife refuge you're occupying belongs to me and to 320 million other Americans. You are trespassing, taking advantage of the hospitality and tolerance of the rest of the American people. You are abusing the rights you so readily invoke by occupying the refuge indefinitely. I would remind you that you are free to stay a maximum of 14 days, because that is the camping limit in most places, and it was put in place so that everyone can share the land.

If they let me continue, I'd suggest they go home and read Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau and perhaps brush up on their history about Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights movement. Parks didn't wave guns around and threaten to kill people on the bus.

Then I'd say: "You are carrying firearms and threatening to commit violence if you don't get your way. You say you want this to be a peaceful protest, but in the same breath you warn that you will fight and die for your cause.  You bluster, trying to provoke a response, all the while using the media to protect you and further your cause.

"You are abusing your rights as an American. There are legal ways to change systems if you feel that they aren't working. I have heard nothing from you about your responsibilities, only demands about what you want, though ultimately, what you want is to control a resource that belongs to me and to every other American. Public lands are our birthright, and you have no right to commandeer them for your own purposes.

"Frankly, I don't want my land – which includes all the federal land in the West – turned over to people who behave like you. I want to be free to hunt, fish, hike, ride my horse, my mountain bike or all-terrain vehicle, to picnic, camp, and to bird watch on the nation's vast tracts of federal ground, and I don't want to have to ask for your permission to do so.

"Your protest is nothing more than an elaborate tantrum conducted with firearms. If you actually won claim to any public lands, I think you'd intimidate and bully others the way you and your followers did in Nevada, and the way you are doing now. Furthermore, your family owes me and 320 million of my fellow Americans more than a million dollars in back grazing fees for using public land without paying your fair share.

"When I cut firewood on nearby Forest Service land, I purchase my 10-cord, personal use permit. I pay my camping fees. I buy my hunting license. I pay to park and use ramps on wild rivers where I kayak. I pay fees because they are used to improve recreation opportunities for everyone.

So I want you to go home and start paying me and your fellow citizens what you owe us. That's what good citizens and neighbors do. Thanks for the conversation."

Chris Dempsey is a contributor to Writers on the Range, the opinion service of High Country News. He lives in Idaho.

Note: the opinions expressed in this column are those of the writer and do not necessarily reflect those of High Country News, its board or staff. If you'd like to share an opinion piece of your own, please write Betsy Marston at betsym@hcn.org.

John W Stephens
John W Stephens Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 12:36 PM
I'd also like them to pay the wages of those they displaced, who are still being paid despite being unable to do the work they were hired to do. That bill is adding up while they diddle.
Nancie McCormish
Nancie McCormish Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 01:50 PM
Bravo! The word public does and should have meaning when defining public lands. Though this is conveniently overlooked, the public ends up paying to support private, for-profit interests which then thwart both public good and public access.

Grazing leases were never intended to create any legal interest or property rights for leaseholders, and are provided by privilege, not right, though our system of entrenched entitlements seems to have engendered a bellicose forgetfulness on this score.
anthony smith
anthony smith Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 03:41 PM
Very well put Chris. Myself and many others can relate to what you have written.
Tom Moritz
Tom Moritz Subscriber
Jan 08, 2016 11:05 PM
Thanks Chris! I'm not a rural westerner but I have spent my whole life enjoying public lands -- and I have worked for US Department of Interior and the Forest Service -- right now, I am working with the Death Valley Natural History Association -- and have gotten the chance to spend a lot of time in Death Valley and at Ash Meadows NWR as you say so clearly, public lands are held in trust for all Americans -- and in my opinion public trust lands are the best resolution we could come to of the series of injustices that have allowed land to be expropriated and defiled... We don't need any more expropriation -- by anyone.
earl klug
earl klug
Jan 09, 2016 06:21 AM
A polite and eloquent way of putting it and I thank you for it. My take on these whining, entitled federal-welfare queens brandishing weapons and wrapping themselves in the Flag is much less charitable.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 09, 2016 01:49 PM
Well said Chris, I grew up up in western Washington in towns and around the edges of urban spaces. My parents instilled in their kids the value and real treasure of the Public Lands that we hiked, camped, fished and hunted in all over the West.... the Federal Government hadn't "locked the land up"....it was the private lands around that were posted "NO TRESPASSING" and "NO HUNTING" and "NO CAMPING" not the Public Lands! Yallqaeda is lying to the people of this Country! They want to "return" the land to the people who never owned it so "they can get back to mining and logging and ranching" ....and lock the rest of us out! We all must deliver a resounding "NO" to this landgrab by these white male elite thugs.
 dave ryland
dave ryland Subscriber
Jan 09, 2016 11:49 PM
Thank you, Mr. Dempsy. I agree with Mr. Klug's comment above; my description of these scalawags would not be fit to print.
Steven Towers
Steven Towers Subscriber
Jan 10, 2016 09:17 AM
The Bundys flat-out reject the notion that lands owned and managed by the federal government on behalf of all citizens is a legitimate arrangement. As a matter of fact, their patriarch Cliven rejects the very legitimacy and existence of the federal government. Everything that you propose saying to them would either fall on deaf ears, or mark you as the enemy. I would argue that you have very little in common with the Bundy clan, Mr. Dempsey.
Nolan Patrick Veesart
Nolan Patrick Veesart
Jan 11, 2016 11:47 AM
Thank you, Mr. Dempsey, for your eloquent side of the "conversation." When this story first broke, my emotions ran from anger to depression. I'm so very tired of hearing from boneheads whose impoverished upbringing left out the awe and respect for nature and any notion of common decency. But now, thanks to this essay and other things I have read and heard, I am heartened by the response of decent people to this latest round of nuttiness from people who claim to be "conservative" but probably can't spell it and certainly have no idea what it means.
Kyle Gardner
Kyle Gardner Subscriber
Jan 11, 2016 05:00 PM
Outstanding Chris - well said. Although, it seems you have little in common with the Bundy klan. I would heartily agree that even if some wacky scheme emerged for transferring public lands, I sure wouldn't want a bunch of well armed fools running the shop. Your comments are very kind considering the nature of the occupiers and their "arguments." It might help if they had an argument, if they had a case..
Kyle Gardner
Kyle Gardner Subscriber
Jan 11, 2016 05:09 PM
Outstanding Chris - well said. Although, it seems you have little in common with the Bundy klan. I would heartily agree that even if some wacky scheme emerged for transferring public lands, I sure wouldn't want a bunch of well armed fools running the shop. Your comments are very kind considering the nature of the occupiers and their "arguments." It might help if they had an argument, if they had a case..
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 11:51 AM
Not to worry Kyle, If this latest incarnation of the Sagebrush Rebellion succeeds, you....and the rest of us will have a lot less access to the lands that had been Public Lands!
The intermountain west will return to a somewhat modernized version of the Gilded Age...why do you think the Oligarchs are spending so much money to buy state legislatures out west?,,,,because they are even easier and less expensive to manipulate than the US Congress!.
Think of it Cui Bono....the extractive industries will no longer have to deal with any Federal land management agencies and they will control statehouses and all state land management...just like the 19th century. However, PILT payments will go away and states will have to sell off the most profitable and desirable former Public Lands to raise money. All serviceable range land will be maxed out for profit and any lands that are not productive will fall into benign neglect. Big corporate and financial interests ( like Rio Tinto, Big Oil, Wall Street and the LDS Church) will rule the day.
The Sagebrush Rebels will be of no further use to the Oligarchs....and they will finally be dealt with summarily if they get underfoot (again, just like in the Gilded Age!)...and that will be that!
Dean Nyffeler
Dean Nyffeler Subscriber
Jan 11, 2016 08:50 PM
Glad you enjoy riding your mountain bike in WSAs. The federal government also locks up lands and closes trails.
Jim Scarborough
Jim Scarborough
Jan 11, 2016 10:11 PM
Too late. Across the interior West and for much of the Republican Party even, the Bundys and their occupying allies have gone from puzzling curiosities to apparent heroes. And with each passing day of inaction and enabling on the part of federal agencies, the seditionists move closer to the status of legend. If the long-term integrity of our birthright of public lands is important to you, this is something worth lamenting a great deal.

Perhaps most troubling, though, are the growing indications that our federal agencies don't much care. They've essentially given up on the 200 square miles that Cliven Bundy and his goons appropriated in Nevada, and by all appearances are fully content to do the same at Malheur. Sure, if the seditionists started terrorizing the citizenry or threatening daily commerce, the feds would intervene. But as long as it's just our public lands getting trashed, law enforcement really couldn't care less. Which means that it'll happen again.

Determined rightists and seditionists, meet apathetic and impotent federal law enforcement. Our birthright is draining away before our eyes, but at least we can write passionate narratives to communicate how upset we are about it. Rest assured, though, that both the seditionists and "law enforcement" couldn't care less.
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 11, 2016 11:15 PM
Obviously you or your imediate family are not Cattle Ranchers Sheep Ranchers or any Food Producing farming group.!!!!!!! If you were in the very small percentage of familys producing the bulk of this Countries food for dirt cheap by the way you would have some sort of real insight into what the Fed Gov. and State Gov is doing to our private and carefull ownership of our Great Land . Perhaps you should get out of your smoke filled armchair and go and get an interview with a real Cattle Rancher who has been doing it like all his life and maybe for a couple or more generations on the same land , they are called Cowboys, and yes they still exist ,, their the reason you can go to the Super and get that great Steak // Then and only the could you give some sortt of accurate crossection view of whats happening in the Western United States of America , Right in front of the armchair public such as yourself ,, have a nice day.
Corvus Corax
Corvus Corax
Jan 12, 2016 10:53 AM
I'd rather eat Tofu than continue to subsidize these hypocrite babies and give them a free pass for their (morally justified, are you kidding me?) illegal deeds. Things are tough all over... Didn't I just read about the feds spending millions to remove thousands of acres of juniper to create more range land? Don't ranchers pay ridiculously below-market grazing fees thanks to the dirty old government that they so frequently malign? How are ranchers so restricted in their grazing when I can go to just about any wilderness area out west and drink from a stream that is polluted with cow patties? The Poor Western Rancher. Please. You are like children who are angry at Christmas when they only get one new pony. You've had more than your share for far too long. The physical footprint of your industry is over-whelming. The false front of your populism is pretty danged limpid when it comes from the chronically self-involved.
Lee S Derr
Lee S Derr Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 01:37 PM
The ranchers I know have adjusted to the globalization of the beef industry, not by complaining about how things used to be, but by looking for other income streams. Most of these Rancher’s efforts are in changing land practices to support native species and ecological diversity. These practices then bring partnerships with the DOW and Nature Conservancy, etc. as well as income from hunting, birding groups, ranch stays (individuals who want a western working experience). These ranchers are grassland managers with a steady hand on a fence stretcher and pliers.

The occupation of Malheur is exposing an undemocratic ideology which is counter to the greatest achievements of the US. Instead of Executive-Legislative-Judicial democracy these guys see rights through the barrel of a gun. Perhaps they should move to a part of the world where the aforementioned rule of law is absent, because that is what they truly represent.
sean cruz
sean cruz
Jan 12, 2016 02:37 PM
This is a welcome voice of reason. I'm not a rancher, but I'm happy to let Chris Dempsey speak for me, just one of those 320 million Americans. There is no "going home" for the Bundys or anyone else involved in the Malheur crime spree.

They are going straight to jail, and it's high time that everyone involved understood that fact. Their future is about stacking their arms, submitting to arrest, getting booked and working on making bail. Complicating this will be dealing with the other domestic terrorists who will come boiling up in their wake, the paramilitary subculture that has self-authorized itself to gun down working-class Americans.

This is where we are today....
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 06:02 PM
We shall see, Sean,....maybe you have access to info the rest of us don't....Cliven Bundy is free and bragging about how he showed the Feds and owes the Government nothing! And besides....Ammon Bundy has divine right on his side....so there...he is not subject to secular authority under his mandate from heaven.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 03:09 PM
Nicely put Chris, much too nice for me. An overwhleming show of force, mass arrests, no holds bared prosecutions and long prison sentences is the only thing that will teach these lawless domestic terrorists a lesson.
Anybody want to guess what would have already happened if these punks had been black or Muslim?
Send them all to Leavenworth or deport them to another country if they don't like it here. Too bad we don't have a law in this country for being ignorant, stupid and uneducated the feds could charge these parasites with.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 03:55 PM
Very well said Chris! Mature and to the point.

@ everyone: I may be just being a pedant, but I don't think we can really label them domestic terrorists - they haven't committed any "terror" acts, nothing that would put them in the same class as, say, the Istanbul bomber today, or the events not long ago in Paris.

But!!! they ARE multiple felony lawbreakers, armed, dangerous, unpredictable, and wanted, and laughing in the face of the law while doing more or less what they please. Why they are not in prison awaiting trial - or dead in an arrest shootout - continues to escape me (politics be damned).
 
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 04:02 PM
They are armed and have taken over a Federal facility. That is domestic terrorism. Lock em up!
sean cruz
sean cruz
Jan 12, 2016 08:14 PM
I think that terrorists become terrorists when they make the decision to kill people indiscriminately at some future date should certain conditions come to pass, and then set in motion acts likely to bring about those conditions. The only targets intended for those guns are working-class Americans doing their jobs. These people are already at war with the American people. The minute that they learn that they are not going home from Malheur, but to a local booking facility, then we'll see whether they were terrorists all along or not....
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 08:37 AM
Sean...I understand that a party of sagebrush rebels are going to Burns today to plight their troth....we may have a chance to see whether your expectations prove correct. I am hopeful but remain skeptical!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 04:14 PM
Oh, I agree with your last sentence Doug ;) But technically a freedom fighter could do the same thing, and still be legit ethically, as long as he or she didn't shoot anyone cold bloodedly. Taking over government facilities is a time honored rebel tradition and can be done peacefully even there are arms present. It's when you start in discriminately killing people that you become a terrorist. (Property damage is vandalism).

It's important that people keeps these labels straight. These guys are getting too much credit, they don't care about anything but just not paying their fees, fines and doing their jail time, and they've found a way to do that and not get nailed to the wall. Yet.

  Labeling them terrorists is giving them too much credit especially in the media. They are just plain old stupid white collar criminals with guns and loud mouths and some good ol' buddies and are getting far more PR than they should.

 McVeigh was a domestic terrorist. Probably laughing at the Bundy's on his long slow descent to hell.

Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 04:19 PM
Even if/when they do get nailed to the wall they are likely to get great pro bono lawyers and get off easy and do book deals and talk shows, etc.

(Stupid does not imply "not clever)
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 05:07 PM
Andy, I do not agree. The KKK were domestic terrorists, so were the white Supremacist at Spirit Lake and so were the SLA and Black Panthers. And don't call these idiots white collar criminals, they are dead enders, loosers, paronoid right wing, racist gun nuts. Nothing but rural backwoods red necks. They never got within a hundred miles of a white collar job that required an 8th grade education.
They all need to be arrested, prosecuted and sent to serve long punishing prison sentences to keep any other fringe nuts from getting any ideas.
The feds asked for this by letting that Mormon Moron Cliven Bundy thumb his nose at the rule of law. Now his half wit son thinks he can dictate to the federal government and make his own rules. The entire episode makes me puke. it's disgusting and every day it goes on is a travesty of law and order. The FBI and the Department of Justice should be ashamed of themselves.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 05:39 PM
The KKK and the Supremacist idiots, etc, indiscriminately killed people. Terrorized them, deliberately and in their face, hung them, burned them, blew them up, etc,etc. So far, neither of these idiots has done anything on that scale.

  I don't disagree with the rest of your points (except to point out that anyone who can get a million dollars deep in dept in ranching land use fees certainly is hard to define as a "blue collar worker" ;) )

 Definitely agreed that the feds asked for it. Hence my comment about soft government. They should have just rolled right over them the first time, whatever reinforcements necessary and whatever casualties. That's why the NG exists, to back up the civ enforcement when it's needed. In not doing so they set a really horribly bad precedent and it is coming back to bite them. (and all of us).

 With all the clamor about too much goverment nowadays, I think people are forgetting what happens when government fails to do it's job, too.

thanks for a good discussion :)








Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 05:56 PM
One more point, no a question. Who really profits from all this confrontation, has tons of money to stir up people and are well organized, are often ruthless and also often outside national controls?

::



David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 06:10 PM
Andy....That one is easy.....the Plutocrats who use the Deep State of Corporate and Financial power to manipulate and control the State and Federal Governments that they have bought and paid for such like in the Gilded Age of the 19th century monopolists, As one of the Kochs said " there is nothing wrong with an Oligarchy....so long as you get the government you paid for".
As I have said elsewhere...once the Oligarchs get the control of Public Lands that they want, the Sagebrush Rebels will be dealt with summarily if they continue to act up inappropriately.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 06:25 PM
Can you translate that into dummy speech for a 50 year old technophile/tradejack whose memories of classical education wrt politics & terms are blurry from depth of time? I'm sure I could do so for myself given time, but I doubt the translation would be accurate ;)

 Hah. I think what you are trying to say, is that the rich are buying politicians on all levels, and it's not the first time (like it ever stopped). A couple rich c_cks said you can buy government, which is not exactly old knowledge (my secondary comment).

 I haven't gone to search for your elsewhere and don't have time to search for it tonight, but I think you mean that the rich have bought everything else up, and if they get enough control, nobody is safe, whether you are an honest rebel, or asshat or an idealist or just about anybody who isn't in the big club.

 Yeah, that's about my analysis, too.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 06:35 PM
Andy, Recently, one of the Kochs opined that " There is nothing wrong with an Oligarchy...so long as we get the government we pay for"
Oligarchy....a government of a few rich and powerful people esp. for corrupt and selfish purposes.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 06:43 PM
I know what an Oligarchy is, David.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 06:20 PM
Andy, In 2014 the head of the Nevada Cattlegrowers Association opined that any rancher whose survival depended on not paying his AUMs....which are a minor cost, had a much bigger problem with his business. Or, I would add....a really big problem with recognizing the authority of the laws all the rest of us get to obey.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 06:36 PM
Like I said, a white collar criminal ;)
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 06:44 PM
A rich criminal with a divine right mandate to do whatever he wants until Gawd tell his otherwise don't forget....just like his sons
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 07:10 PM
Human behavior, at base, has changed very little in the last few thousand years.
Nancie McCormish
Nancie McCormish Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 06:02 PM
@ Andy: Corporations with flags.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 06:08 PM
I was thinking arms manufacturers, which falls under that set. But yeah, more interests than just them.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 06:15 PM
Read the essay on the Arch coal bankruptcy here on HCN! Pay attention the proposed rollback on royalties, the $14 million refund to the Kochs proposed by the BLM along with relaxed regulations on Public Land for their latest mine. The government just wants to help out a coal company that's having a rough patch, you know!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 06:37 PM
Gov gives with one hand, takes away with other.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 06:42 PM
All part of the military/ industrial complex....the big extractive industries have particular interest in regaining the unfettered power and control of the West that they held in the 19th century.
They have spent a lot of money buying statehouses out West because it remains easier and less expensive than buying the Federal government....but they are well on their way to accomplishing that objective as well
Wayne L Hare
Wayne L Hare Subscriber
Jan 12, 2016 06:42 PM
That was a pretty reasoned piece. Nice job. The Bundy crew are outlaws, appealing to the twisted reasoning of a certain ilk of 'law abiding citizens'. Nice job Mr. Dempsey.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 12, 2016 07:01 PM
Too many Westerns watched, do you think?
Craig Kafura
Craig Kafura
Jan 12, 2016 08:32 PM
Right on - spoken like a true American.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 16, 2016 05:37 PM
@ Craig Kafura: A 'true' american? Have you ever met one? ;)
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 12, 2016 10:41 PM
 All the comments on this subject I have read so far are all for the Fed Gov Taking these Men and Prosecuting them to the Max ..... hmmm well all you armchair Ranchers are OK with the Fed Or State taking these folks land and Rights lllll hmmmm you are probably real good at spoting trends on Face Book but you cant spot the trends happening Right out Side of your own Window........... These are Trends the Ranchers are protesting and you dont see it because it is not happening to you or your friends .... what hapens when this trend continues ,,,,, and your Sons or Daughters house or Real Estate is valued by the Fed or State and boom its taken . I wonder who will you complain to or protest to????? This Trend is Called Socialism and its Not how the United States became the good place it is and if we cant call attention to it it will continue to grow in the darkness. These Ranchers are at the very least shining a light on this problem ,, I wonder if you people reading this will go down in history as the ones who fiddled while Rome Burned.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 13, 2016 04:47 AM
@ Brandon:
 I'd rather have socialism than facism. But no, that's not what this is about. This is about people breaking the law, then flouting that fact in the face of ALL OF THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS, and not being called on it.

If Rule of Law fails, our country fails. We stand for freedom, but the only way to be free from other people with guns is if the rule of law is enforced fairly and evenly. It is not being so in this case.

These guys aren't freedom fighters, they are simple criminals. Keep that in mind while you spout your rhetoric.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 08:30 AM
Brandon....The way civil disobedience works , if you have any principles, is that you perform the disobedience than you get arrested and you have your day in court to plead your case before the law.. As Andy has pointed out....without the rule of law, however imperfect, we have a state of nature and anarchy...and these dudes are essentially anarchist in their doctrine.
Do you ever find yourself obeying laws that you disagree with? well the rest of us do! So why should these dudes get a free ride in the face of civil society.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 10:08 AM
Brandon, holy mother of god, are there really people out there who think like you do? I don't care if it happens in Manhattan or Shitsville, Idaho - these blowhard anti government nuts need to be arrested, prosecuted and serve time in a Federal prison. We are a nation based on the rule of law. Nobody gets to do whatever they feel like.
And being an unedcuated, paranoid, backwoods bufffoon is not an excuse. The Feds should that take idiot Cliven Bundyand his two half wit moron sons and put them in the same prison cell!!!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 13, 2016 07:49 PM
@Doug Smith: Brandon, holy mother of god, are there really people out there who think like you do? ::

 If one takes the number of hard core supporters of Trump as willing warriors of $Bog, yup.

 Facism is rearing it's ugly head again, as it does every election cycle. This time it has entirely too much support. Even the armed portion of it is outnumbered by thousands to one by just the responsible armed people in this country, but they have entirely too much media attention, and that's why we're here.

 @ Editors: No, it is not my intention to turn this into a political harangue, but sometimes it just goes that way *he says helplessly"
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 04:59 PM
OMG!! Socialism... Please save that kind of language for the taproom, Brandon....and break out the smelling salts, we are all fainting dead away here!!!
But, seriously....socialism gets a bad rap in this country from Randians, land barons, monopolists and people who know nothing about it. I for one don't think that its benefits should just be reserved for the rich! I rather like social security, medicare, universal medical care, publicly owned utilities, the
interstate highway system , parks, food and drug safety regulations, Public Lands, a public education system, the USPS, banking regulations (however inadequate), consumer protection laws, clean air and water....you know....stuff like that and more!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 05:17 PM
This just in.....the divine wizards of nevermore have announced a rally in Burns on Friday during which they will reveal there plans for our Public Lands and just when they might be moving their militia circus down the road.
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 06:16 PM
Yes after re-reading these posts , I stand by what I've said , you all don't care about ownership rights being taken away from these people and others like them, mostly out West , because it's not happening to you, you don't like the cattle Rancher because his cattle poop , but how about the buffalo , it was wide spread all across the West , in the mountain's we had the mountain buffalo , and guess what it pooped too , I guess you would hate that too , but I bet most of you cerebral "Westerner's" love a good steak or buff burger, Well nobody has been hurt by these people and I think what they are trying to do is wake the rest of us up a little to the problem of Government take-over of our rights. We are a Democratic Republic -Not A Social Republic and as for me I would not try to get my point across by threatening violence either with a baseball bat "THE MAIN WEAPON OF MURDERS IN THIS NATION'or with a gun and I don't believe they intend to harm anyone but it has brought up this and other good conversation's around our Nation and I for one am looking forward to hear what they have to say in their public meeting.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 14, 2016 06:09 PM
Brandon...its even worse than that!....a lot of us are VEGETARIANS!!...and what is this fixation on scatological references?,,,,I didn't see any one mentioning a problem with scat or poop in these posts...did I miss something?....I love following coyote scat around on a trail during a morning hike after listening to them sing to me all night...Gawd's dog, indeed! I must admit, though, you got me on the issue of cow pies!... guilty as charged! Don't run into much Bison poop these days, though,....the ranchers got 'em all ages ago!
We are not a Democratic Republic, we are a Plutocracy...probably on the way to Oligarchy....and then some sort of demagogic despot like Trump!...our very own Mussolini!
So am I....so long as they get taken into custody afterwards!....before would be better!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 13, 2016 06:40 PM
Yes, Brandon, buffalo poop good for grasses.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 13, 2016 06:43 PM
I think you may need to lay off the herb a bit.
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 07:06 PM
Yes Mrs Grosland , Cattle poop good for grasses too. Why the personal advise ? Not used to a conversation with someone who doesn't agree with everything you say?
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 13, 2016 07:10 PM
Heh. If you had looked at some of my posts, you'd realize that I jump right into the middle of controversy, and while I try not to insult, I have no problem calling spades.

It's a bad habit, but a lifetime one, and I've learned to make it a rational one, unlike your heroes.

You are in your mid 20s somewhere, yes?
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 07:13 PM
Mr. Grosland I was in my mid twenties during the early eighties.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 13, 2016 07:40 PM
@ Brandon 20s 80s

Well, from my viewpoint you haven't learned anything at all since then. You've let other people dictate what you think. I hope you haven't let them dictate what you do. The socialist vs capitalist argument died almost a quarter of a century ago. Let it go.

 That's the end of this part of the thread, from my end. Not what this is about.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 14, 2016 06:11 PM
How sad that is...a case of arrested development, me thjinks!
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 07:27 PM
Brandon, what I really wanted to say to was censored by HCN. However, after reading your nonsensical, rambling post, I have no interest in a discussion with you.
Let me remind you this country was not empty when Europeans arrived at Jamestown, it had been inhabited for over 10,000 years by native Americans. That's not a statement, it's a fact. It took genoicide and the forced removal of native Americans from THEIR land and the slaughter of 30 million buffalo to settle the West. Again, these are facts. So don't preach to me about loosing your way of life - tough luck.

And no, I don't hide behind the internet, my name is right there. And yes I would say it to your face and I don't own or hide behind a gun like those half wits at the reserve to make me tough.
I only wish I could go that meeting on Friday except I am sure it would be utterly depressing. Here's a thought, if you and your kindered spirits can't abide by the laws of this country, why don't you find another country one..
You should have listened to the State of the Union last night instead of waiting for the black helicopters to land and the UN to send you to a reducation camp. You might have learned something.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 13, 2016 08:07 PM
@DougSmith

Brandon lacks perspective. Troll or not, not a worthy argument.

 I'd like to get this back to the other parts of this crap.

 A few things we should all consider here, no matter what side we are on:

What are the short and long term effects on national politics / election / etc going to be? (Ugh!!! I know, but if we don't discuss it we're not helping and it'll bite us bad. ).

A lot of the people talking about this have a point overall about government repression and surveillance and emdom, so what can we do about that? I think it's general agreement that the laws need changing, yes?

How do we deal with this sort of ideological nuttery in our own communities when it happens?

How do we as citizens set up some sort of community defense against this?

 Other suggestions?



  
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 14, 2016 06:21 PM
As long as these people are manipulated and preyed upon by the Limbaughs, Murdochs , Ailes and so many others how foster and inflame this ignorance and lunancy, there really is no hope. these people are of great value to the Deep State at present which will deal with them when they are no longer useful to their objectives! Unfortunately, as so many wise people have pointed out....they cannot be talked to reasoned their delusion is beyond reason.... it is called the "male pathology". The Navajo refer to people like this as being possessed of "the dark wind" and must be avoided for ones own sanity because nothing can be done and one might become infected...very wise those old Navajo....and demonstrates that this phenomenon is not a new feature of the brain of Homo rapiens!
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 13, 2016 07:54 PM
@Brandon

Not everyone thinks the way you do

http://www.hcn.org/articles[…]e-leading-on-climate-action
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 08:17 PM
Boom!!!
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 14, 2016 06:22 PM
Say what?
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 08:23 PM
Mr. Grosland . Troll alert ,,,, hummmmm is that a white flag of surrender. ????
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 08:39 PM
Mr. Grosland , You my friend are rambling.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 13, 2016 08:40 PM
I apologize to the editors of this forum for wasting their time.
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 08:52 PM
I stand by all my posts you seem to lack much substance and seem to be running out of steam. This is an important topic and we will learn more of what the building takeover gang of "violent " Ranchers are upset about at the Friday Meeting . Do you remember Ferguson and the happenings there? That was evidently a problem we the Nation didn't know about ,,,, the killing of sometimes innocent Black People , the riots in that town created a light to be focused on that problem ..... although the violence was not what I would have done it did focus our Nation's attention on the problem of police brutality on Blacks in the Population . I think all police officer's are more aware of how they treat all of us ,,,, Remember Black Lives Matter .................. Well Rancher's Lives Matter. Tooo.l

Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 13, 2016 08:58 PM
Say what you want, dress it up any way you want and be as nice as you want but the anti- goverment, backwoods, paranoid, gun toting, rural red necks and white supremist militias are every bit as much a domestic threat to this country as Islamic extremist. That's a fact from the Department Of Homeland Security Domestic Terrorism Unit that was disbanded under pressure from right wing, tea party, freedom coaliton republicans. Go the Southern Povery Law Center web site for more information and facts on these lawless nuts.
If the FBI doesn't take action immediately, another Timothy McVeigh from backwoods USA will blow up another Federal Building.
Trump appeals to these poeple and if we don't all take action, vote and make our voices heard, these welfare prarie red necks will continue to ignore the principles and values this country was founded on.
The first step is the arrest, prosecution and long sentnces in a Federal Prison for all three Bundy's.
David W Hamilton
David W Hamilton Subscriber
Jan 14, 2016 06:24 PM
And... they are on the increase! Does not bode well, I would suggest.
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 09:22 PM
Mr. Smith. This is all the same old stuff................ let me see ........... Name Calling .......... Grade School ............. Stuff............. So it's the same as Islamic Extremist ???? I haven't got that e-Mail I guess about all the violence these people have done.? Rambling sir Rambling lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 10:23 PM
 Mr. Smith, on what subject,, would you care to elaborate. ... ..... waiting.... ... ... ... ... waiting................... oh calling names oh yeah you go Mr . Smith you go ..
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 10:47 PM
Mr. Smith Etc. I know it is getting late and the Merlot must be kicking in and well the welfare check is set to be delivered on the marrow so can't stay up to late tonight. , this is I guess the reason for no response's at this late hour of 9:45 so good night to you and good night to all..Maybe a little more info from those terrible building takeover Rancher's of Oregon on Friday will tell some more of the Rest Of The Story ... as Paul Harvey would say It ..
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 13, 2016 11:31 PM
Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmm..................................................
Wayne L Hare
Wayne L Hare Subscriber
Jan 14, 2016 12:52 PM
REALLY guys? Are you SURE you want to do this in public?!?!
Andrea LePain
Andrea LePain Subscriber
Jan 15, 2016 11:05 PM
Brandon Glimpse is one scary man. He doesn't get that the land isn't and wasn't the ranchers' every? The grazing fees are for use of a public resource. What's the problem with the public collecting it (via a public agency)? What ranchers have had their own, paid-for, legally deeded land taken away from them?
Dale Lockwood
Dale Lockwood Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:01 PM
Malheur National Wildlife Refuge was established on August 18, 1908, by President Theodore Roosevelt as the Lake Malheur Reservation. Roosevelt set aside unclaimed government lands encompassed by Malheur, Mud and Harney Lakes “as a preserve and breeding ground for native birds.” The newly established “Lake Malheur Reservation” was the 19th of 51 wildlife refuges created by Roosevelt during his tenure as president. At the time, Malheur was the third refuge in Oregon and one of only six refuges west of the Mississippi. Almost all the refuge was created by 1935.

The Bundy's and their gang is no different than any other hoodlum group that thinks might is right. This country is doomed and so is democracy if these individuals don't get long jail sentences.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 16, 2016 05:50 PM
They will Dale. Google the Montana Freemen to find out what happened to the last batch of anti government backwoods red necks who thought they the rule of law didn't apply to them.
And Cliven Bundy is going to see the inside of a Federal prison soon.
The whole lot of them are unhinged lawless
criminals soon to be prosecuted by the Federal government they abhor.
Eric Sorensen
Eric Sorensen
Jan 17, 2016 02:52 PM
The carpet-bagger white settlers / crooked hands-on-backwards politicians / railroad thieves / pay-off artists who STOLE these and ALL the North American continent from the native American Indians started this mess!! Andrew Jackson and his DAMNED STUPID “Manifest Destiny” bull s - - t!!

Who is paying too little to graze federal lands...who / what rancher is getting away with what in the name of being a good land husband...whose family has been ranching on what ground/territory for over 100 years? WHO CARES.

ALL this land was stolen OUT-RIGHT from American Indians. And, these Indians had their populations, ancient cultures, languages and customs physically and pathologically eviscerated in the [ FALSE ] name of stealing all the Indian lands they could possibly steal!! For what? So white Europeans could squat on them, fence them off and call they their own? Liar-Liar pants ON FIRE! Give all these lands back to their original owners, PUBLICLY apologize for stealing the lands, then negotiate to LEGALLY buy them if the Indians want to sell them!! No matter how strong a thief is, the wrong they committed will NEVER be erased without SERIOUSLY and TRANSPARENTLY addressing the original sin - the ROOT of this entire fiasco.

Ranchers have rights...squatters have rights...settlers have rights...BOLOGNA!!! We have no rights in this immense, OVERT and OBVIOUS LAND THEFT case. As Americans we DO have a CORNUCOPIA of RESPONSIBILITIES and we must right the wrong that was done to our Native Americans. Until we do, NO AMOUNT of property occupying, gun-play, gun display, chest pounding, SHOUTING, BLAMING, FINGER POINTING, headline grabbing, press conferences, and more blah-blah-blah is going to start to undo the ORIGINAL sin committed. Get to the root of this matter and start from there. Telling the TRUTH and being FAIR will solve this matter and RIGHT A-L-O-T of wrongs for the long term.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 17, 2016 04:43 PM
Excellent Eric, we arw no doubt the worst species on the planet and an embarressment to all animals:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/17/us/standoff-in-oregon-
attracts-supporters-bearing-disparate-grievances.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share

Nuts, freaks and criminals!
Scott C
Scott C Subscriber
Jan 23, 2016 07:04 PM
Eric Sorensen = Who did the Indians steel it from? You know they did. Everybody did. We are just the latest incarnation. Don't feel so guilty.
Scott C
Scott C Subscriber
Jan 23, 2016 07:10 PM
I have to laugh at all the anti-ag narrative. I've heard so many mis-informed opinions from people who obviously don't know didly-squat about ag and the low cost of food they currently enjoy. They better hope they don't get their way to end all the extraction and grazing on public lands, or they will be rudely awakened by prices that are out of this world. They think ranchers get rich off the public dole. They don't get rich because prices are artificially low already. The anti ag'ers do not see that any cost savings is going right back into their own pockets in the form low food prices. Also, once the ranchers are gone do you really think the Feds are going to let all that land be unproductive while you ride your mountain bikes down a few trails? Think again; you're being fooled. They will rent it out to the next highest bidder - Think China and Saudi Arabia - it's already happening. You are being led to slaughter, sold down the river and you won't even tie it back to the lame arguments this website espouses. I don't agree with the Bundy's. I also don't agree with some of the over bearing Federal agencies and their over bearing edicts. I believe in fair laws with equal footing for everybody. Pay your grazing fee's. Enjoy your cheap food. Ride your mountain bikes. Protect the land too. That's what I want. It can be done. Extremism either way will not work.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 23, 2016 07:26 PM
Spare me the poor farmer drivel. Come in off the prarie every once in a while and maybe you will learn something.
sean cruz
sean cruz
Jan 23, 2016 07:32 PM
The situation continues to worsen. The Oath Keepers national president has called for cop killers to unite in “defense” of Malheur, "green-lights" gunning down police officers, making direct threats of bloodshed.
My dad was a Solano County Sheriff's Deputy, a patrol officer for more than 15 years, raised his family while patrolling hundreds of miles alone at night, and I feel for those law enforcement officers in Harney County and their families who worry about their safety every time they walk out the door to do their job, protecting the community from these armed criminals.

I hate cop killers. The Bundys and the militias they are attracting all have it in their minds that they are self-"authorized" to shoot police officers in or out of uniform, without remorse. This fact alone ranks them among the most dangerous people in North America, the most directly dangerous to everyday, working-class Americans.

Stewart Rhodes, founder and National President of Oath Keepers, warned the nation's law enforcement officers (LEOs), declaring that the cops will be the first ones “bleeding and dying in the chaos” should they move against the Bundy mob at Malheur.

“It will be you current(ly) serving military and LEO...who will bleed,” he wrote.

Warning to U.S. Military and Federal LEOs:

https://www.oathkeepers.org/[…]/

Dale Lockwood
Dale Lockwood Subscriber
Jan 23, 2016 08:01 PM
The Bundy's are nothing but common thuds and been getting away with everything for decades. They act like the old west where one rancher controls everything. Time for the Bundy's to get life in prison.
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 24, 2016 03:06 PM
,Scott, C, enjoyed reading your comment you are sharing some real insight on food production and the low prices we enjoy in this Country, the majority of the commenter's in this Magazine don't seem to understand the problem with 'un-intended consequence's' .
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 24, 2016 05:29 PM
O>M>G> I thought that this forum discussion was to inspire lively conversation and comment and to stay clear of "Personal Attacks" If our discussion doesn't stay "ON TOPIC" then it falls short of the important events that are taking place. You Mr. Smith and I , have the right to our personal opinions without personal attack.
Wayne L Hare
Wayne L Hare Subscriber
Jan 24, 2016 07:24 PM
I have to agree with Mr. Glimpse on the issue of the usefulness of this forum. There exist here the opportunity to have a discussion that enlightens and educates.

Mr. Scott C, I just wrapped up an entire career in federal land management with the National Park Service and the BLM. I was outdoors almost every single day interacting with all variety of public land users, including ranchers with whom I became friends. I don’t think that anybody is proposing ending all extraction and grazing on public lands as you postulate. I don’t read where anybody seems to want all ranchers gone. It doesn’t do you or your readers any good to make something up in your argument that you can’t support. I think that people of reason, which does NOT include the wackadoodles in Oregon, simply want ranchers, or anybody else profiting from using public land that belongs to all Americans, to pay the grazing fee or permit fees that the government ask for. God knows it’s low enough and if they can’t afford the fee, subsidized by the American people, then they have other more pressing problems. The current, 2015 fee, is a whooping $1.69 per animal unit per month. Not far from where it has been for decades. An animal unit is considered to be a 1,000 pound cow with or without an unweaned calf. Ranchers always have the option of paying considerably higher grazing fees on private lands. And to my knowledge, nobody FORCED them to go into ranching in the first place. I have personally made bad career choices. I didn’t cry and whine and blame the government and steal assets from the American people! I simply changed careers. Not too sure why ranchers, unlike all other for-profit users of public lands, should not have to pay a fee. And I think that most of the readers of this prolonged comment section, actually would like to know EXACTLY what “overbearing edicts” you are referring to. Unless they are a figment of your imagination. Otherwise, please enlighten us. We are open vessels, waiting to be educated by you. For that matter, maybe the thugs and welfare cheats, er, I mean PATRIOTS occupying the refuge could ACTUALLY enlighten use by telling us exactly what their ‘beef' with the federal government and the American people actually is? Who knows? If they were actually capable of articulating that, maybe I’d agree with them.

Anyway, if folks don’t have anything to say, consider not saying anything.
Dale Lockwood
Dale Lockwood Subscriber
Jan 24, 2016 07:32 PM
To not follow the rules of democracy meaning the laws leads to anarchy and lawlessness, what Bundy is doing is more a threat to democracy than Isis.
Bundy has got away with his bully tactics all his life.


To allow Bundy to go unpunished encourages more takeover of our way of life and a end to Democracy.

Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 24, 2016 08:41 PM
The statement that the Ranchers taking over some buildings at a winter slowed down waterfowl reserve in a sparlsy populated corner of Oregon is in any way shape or form comparable to the brutal blood-bath killings that ISIS has perpetrated throughout the World is an embarrassment to any intelligent person. We need to get back to the Real topic at hand , I would like to hear more specifics about what these Men are so upset about that they would risk imprisonment.
Doug Smith
Doug Smith Subscriber
Jan 24, 2016 09:19 PM
They are going to spend a long punishing prison sentence in a Federal prison because they are militant lawless armed thugs and bullies. Who cares what they were upset about?
All criminals and terrorist that think they are right and god is on their side.
The Bundy's will get plenty of time to think that through in prison.
Wayne L Hare
Wayne L Hare Subscriber
Jan 24, 2016 10:19 PM
Well, I care what they are upset about. They should articulate it. Mr. Glimpse obviously cares about it. My guess would be that hundreds of thousands of people would like to know what in the world they are upset about. Their extraordinarily low grazing fees? The stipulation that they have to move their cattle so that the range doesn’t become over-grazed and thus letting in harmful, invasive weeds? That they have to keep their cattle from trampling the riparian zones and wetlands? That they have to feed their horses weed-free hay before riding them onto public land so that they don’t introduce invasives? That the Federal government won’t 'give them back' lands that neither they nor their ancestors ever owned? The fact that they can’t even articulate their complaints speaks volumes. Maybe they’re just annoyed with those darn Paiutes who think that if the federal government is going to ‘give back’ the land to the original owners, it ain’t these make-believe cowboys. Who knows? But yeah, I care what they are upset about. But I do agree with you. Imprisonment SHOULD be in their future. C’mon Sally Jewell! Man up!
sean cruz
sean cruz
Jan 24, 2016 11:21 PM
This is what a serious mental illness looks like, a sociopathic paranoic criminal hysteria, contagious to a degree, armed and very dangerous.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Jan 25, 2016 08:45 AM
With their announcement, the Oath Keepers have just become self-proclaimed domestic terrorists. Threatening not only the FBI, but military personnel? Wow. Not smart.
Dale Lockwood
Dale Lockwood Subscriber
Jan 25, 2016 08:56 AM
The real question is they took over a federal building now announced they are reclaiming 300 sq. miles of public land this spring.


What's next-a group decides to take over a National Park(a group about 30 years ago actually planned to take over Mount Rushmore-My friend a Security person for the park had to sit on top of the Monument with a firearm in case they carried out their plan-nothing happened), a Federal Court house-you could keep going on this list. We are a society of rules,without following these rules created by democracy we have nothing. The United States will not be the United States.
Andrea LePain
Andrea LePain Subscriber
Jan 25, 2016 09:42 AM
Good questions, Mr Hare. And my previous statement that Mr Glimpse was scary was in response to his "Boom" comment on Jan. 13. I don't see how that was intended to "inspire lively comment and discussion". What was that about, anyways?
sean cruz
sean cruz
Jan 25, 2016 10:21 AM
The cop killer at Malheur: This is what a serious mental illness looks like, these paramilitaries/militias/”sovereign citizens”, a sociopathic paranoic delusional criminal hysteria, contagious to a degree, armed and very dangerous.

Malheur terrorist claims it's legal to kill cops

http://www.wweek.com/[…]/
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 25, 2016 12:55 PM
The only reason I said boom was to put an exclamation point on the comment I had made earlier , like at the end of a some poetry, Several of the other comments of that evening had turned into personal attacks toward me with very little or no substance towards the topic and were deleted by the editors.
 dave ryland
dave ryland Subscriber
Jan 25, 2016 03:31 PM
 I copied Mr. Hare's excellent post above and reposted it here because he makes an excellent point in asking what the militant "ranchers" are so up in arms about. I'd also like to know: "What exactly are they so upset about?".
 
Wayne L Hare says:
Jan 24, 2016 10:19 PM
"Well, I care what they are upset about. They should articulate it. Mr. Glimpse obviously cares about it. My guess would be that hundreds of thousands of people would like to know what in the world they are upset about. Their extraordinarily low grazing fees? The stipulation that they have to move their cattle so that the range doesn’t become over-grazed and thus letting in harmful, invasive weeds? That they have to keep their cattle from trampling the riparian zones and wetlands? That they have to feed their horses weed-free hay before riding them onto public land so that they don’t introduce invasives? That the Federal government won’t 'give them back' lands that neither they nor their ancestors ever owned? The fact that they can’t even articulate their complaints speaks volumes. Maybe they’re just annoyed with those darn Paiutes who think that if the federal government is going to ‘give back’ the land to the original owners, it ain’t these make-believe cowboys. Who knows? But yeah, I care what they are upset about."

I also agree that imprisonment SHOULD be in their future.
Scott C
Scott C Subscriber
Jan 29, 2016 11:01 PM
Wayne L Hare - Here are some examples you asked for:

Disclaimer: I consider myself a conservationist, but I will not support organizations who disregard the truth to further their agendas. I also consider myself a patriot, but again, I will not support deception, blind allegiance or extemism in any form; from either side.


overbearing edicts by Federal agencies:

Larry Pratt gives the example of Tony DeMeo, a former Jersey City police officer who got elected as Sheriff in Nye County, Nevada. He became a pivotal player in his county by protecting citizens from an outrageous abuse of power that was perpetrated by the Bureau of Land Management.

Pro-gun activists will remember the stalwart Rep. Helen Chenoweth of Idaho who served in the 1990s. Well her husband, Wayne Hage leased acreage for his ranch from the BLM. Hage had ownership of the water rights -- as long as he used the water at least once during the year.

Later, the BLM decided that Hage did not belong on the land, and so they began to confiscate his cattle. After the second theft, Hage enlisted Sheriff DeMeo's assistance, which helped him deal with the BLM when they arrived a third time to confiscate even more cattle. Sheriff DeMeo confronted the BLM agents and backed them down to the point where Hage no longer had to worry about the BLM's larceny anymore.

After Hage’s death, his son won a lawsuit begun by his dad against the federales, and now a court ruling has established that the Hage family can live without fear of their government stealing their property.

EL DORADO COUNTY (CBS13) — The El Dorado County Sheriff John D’Agostini is taking the unusual step of pulling the police powers from the federal agency because he says he has received “numerous, numerous complaints.”
- I don't know the particulars, but Sheriffs are elected officials and are beholden to people within their county. Federal agencies are not. I fully support my local sheriff.

The Bureau of Land Management has declared the Burning Man “radical self-expression/self-reliance" community “experiment” in northern Nevada’s Black Rock Desert a temporary weapons-free zone, GunLeaders Blog reported today. Citing a Department of the Interior “Notice of Temporary Closure and Temporary Restrictions of Specific Uses on Public Lands in Pershing County, NV” appearing in the Federal Register Volume 77, Number 157 (Tuesday, August 14, 2012), the edict mandates “temporary closures and temporary restrictions will be in effect from August 13, 2012 to September 17, 2012.
- I don't agree that any federal agency has the authority suspend a consitutional right. In doing so, this edict exposes people as soft targets. I don't think it's wise and is probably unlawful.


I don’t think that anybody is proposing ending all extraction and grazing on public lands as you postulate.

- Well, there are A LOT of people proposing ending all extraction and grazing on public lands. Peruse at your leisure. The deception involved and

http://www.publiclandsranching.org/
https://www.westernwatersheds.org/about/
http://www.wildearthguardians.org
"Livestock ranching on public lands in the west costs the taxpayer millions of dollars and destroys wildlife habitat. It’s time to give ranchers a graceful way out. "
http://onda.org/what-we-do/wilderness


Then a decpetive book full of false propaganda written for those who have not the slightest idea about what ranching in the West is really about: Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction Of The American West. By George Wuerthner

Remember -
EVERYTHING you own, ALL THE WEALTH IN THE WORLD and EVERY JOB ON EARTH has its roots in extracting SOMETHING from the earth. Thats what LIFE has to do in order to exist. Whether it's minerals, plants or animals. Yes, we need to do it consciously so that we're not destroying the earth, but there are some extremists that want to completely abolish the whole shabang. If that happens, then noboby will have a job and/or cannot live (not even them!); not to mention having any wealth. I can't support that. I do support sustainable extraction from the land, and fair laws that support small business; not just the big corporations.
William Keen
William Keen
Jan 30, 2016 07:56 AM
These commenters are SO WRONG!

This is the same argument that led to the creation of the United States. Taxation without Representation! The "King" POTUS & his proxies, taking whatever they want, doing whatever they would, and the people having NO SAY in whatever happens.

Do you REALLY think that these ranchers just sat there waiting for one day to decide to say "NO"? This is an ongoing problem that began when the United States IGNORED the Constitution and KEPT the lands for themselves.

That is NOT to say that they were actually worth anything when these lands were FORFEITED to the Feds. The fact remains that there is NO provision in the US Constitution for the Federal Government to OWN any lands other than those SPECIFICALLY named. To withhold the 'title' to these is THEFT OF PROPERTY from the people that YOU COMMENTERS are accusing of TERRORISM!

The State should/must have the title and absolute authority over any public lands WITHIN each State. The Feds have used encroachment to establish control over EVERYTHING that we have not STOPPED by force, either in court or on the land.

When the Bundy's and Hammonds attempted to settle this in court, they were railroaded and denied lawful access to the courts. Just HOW do YOU think that setting fire to desert to burn off weeds is an act of arson? The Feds do it all the time!

The Bundy's paid their fees every year for decades UNDER CONTRACT in which the Feds were to improve the roads and waterways. This never happened so the Bundy's quit paying and THEN the feds claim that FOUL!

Not So! The feds (PTB using the grunts to do the dirty work) want this land so that they can SELL access to oil and gas well developers, Wind farm operators, and mining interests.

Just WHY does a successful businessman/attorney give up their practice and go into politics? Because, it is the fastest way to get rich! If you can't DO something then you sell your soul to someone who has the money and doesn't mind stealing from the people.

The Bundy's and Hammonds have ridden like Paul Revere and declared publicly that the "Government is Coming" to steal the land and we aren't supporting their LAWFUL protests.

Since you do agree that the lands are public, THEY are the public ON HAND. There was NO ONE displaced by there living in the buildings as they were ABANDONED! The Park Service had discontinued their use - another point in favor of the Bundy's & Hammonds.

Enjoy your 'cake' while others are giving up their lives to protect the ideals that made this country what it USED to BE!

Live Free Or Die!
Dale Lockwood
Dale Lockwood Subscriber
Jan 30, 2016 08:33 AM
The above statement is like a threat and full of will say false statements.
Wayne L Hare
Wayne L Hare Subscriber
Jan 30, 2016 08:46 AM
See Keen post above as an example of a really unhelpful dialogue.
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 31, 2016 06:08 PM
Keen is making a very good point , for us people in the Western United States, we have had so much land taken away from us citizens, all in the name of "The Greater Good" . Excuse me but this is what Hitler used as an excuse to start one of his Socialist freedom robing programs called The Rangers, supposedly to save forests "For The Greater Good" only problem was he had to TAKE them away from people that had rights to them or outright owned them. Well Hitler continued to do such grievous things to his people he was elected by but all along the same lines as this humble beginning and we all know the rest of the horrible story.
Dale Lockwood
Dale Lockwood Subscriber
Jan 31, 2016 06:28 PM
The refuge was created in 1908. Well before the Bundy's existed. There is no land taking involved,also Bundy's owe over 1 million dollars for grazing on public land.
99.9 % of the ranchers get along with the BLM land managers. My rancher friend put it in simple words-the Bundy's are a nut case who by making their own set of rules and laws want to overthrow the existing democratic system in this country.
That German individual you mentioned ran the country like a miltia-no laws or rules except as he pleases.
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Jan 31, 2016 06:39 PM
So the Federal Gov. took that land in 1908 and the date somehow makes it in any way "Right".
Dale Lockwood
Dale Lockwood Subscriber
Jan 31, 2016 07:31 PM
The land was already federal land in 1908 just put under protection of the natural resources for all people. We are a nation of people and some people.
Yes I heard some say we should do away with all are National Parks also. Some people forget we are a society and country for all.
Wayne L Hare
Wayne L Hare Subscriber
Jan 31, 2016 08:11 PM
Oh good Lord! No, Mr. Glimpse…the federal government didn’t ‘take’ that land from one of your ranching ancestors in 1908 to make a refuge. The federal government made a refuge out of land that it (the American people) ALREADY OWNED! This isn’t that hard to understand. The federal government obtained that land from England in a treaty in 1846. It didn’t ‘take’ it from ranchers. The English evidently ‘took’ it, in the case of the refuge, from the Paiutes. Use of SOME of that land has been given to ranchers at a very nominal fee, far below market rates, with conditions for caring for that land. Those conditions have changed as science and use and population and climate and invasives and fire have changed. Western lands that are now states were all previously territories owned by the federal government. When territories became states, the federal government then gave to the states SOME of the land in the former territory. The rest they continued to hold for the public. ALL the public. All entities who use public land to generate a profit pay a fee. Not just poor, put-upon ranchers. Evidently the wicked feds have been such benevolent landlords, that some people, after years of doing as they pleased with public lands, got confused and thought the land belonged to them personally. Again, it doesn’t and never did. So that makes it exceedingly difficult to ‘give it back’. You’d have to have owned it somewhere along the way, which you didn’t.

To Mr. Scott C: Precisely WHAT ‘outrageous abuse of power perpetrated by the BLM’ did Tony DeMeo protect the citizens of his county from? Re Helen Chenoweth being remembered as a pro-gun activist: I think that most folks remember her as the Idaho senator who, after the Oklahoma City Federal building was bombed, chided congress for “not trying to understand anti-government activist.” Militia friendly Helen was also the wackadoodle who held hearings on ‘black helicopters’ which her militia friends believed were filled with UN storm troopers intent on swooping down onto western ranches and imposing martial law. She was so extreme that then governor Cecil Andrus proclaimed that if Chenoweth “saw a fire, she’d try to douse it by pouring a bucket of gasoline on it.” As for her husband, Wayne Hage, one of the early leaders of the Sagebrush Rebellion, certainly does seem to have had many run-ins with the federal government and government ‘agents’. But the final chapter in this case that spans several decades is conclusive: The 9th U.S. Court of Appeals in Carson City, NV, ruled FOR the government and AGAINST the heirs of Wayne Hage. As far as federal ‘agents’ that Hage encountered, the FBI has ‘agents’. The BLM and Forest Service have foresters, and hydrologist, and ecologist, and range technicians and rangers. But not ‘agents’. That’s’ just an inflammatory style of writing to infer strong hand tactics by the federal government where none existed.

As far as a county sheriff taking ‘the unusual step of pulling the police powers of the federal agency’: A sheriff has no such power to grant or deny any powers to the federal government. There’s a troublesome little clause in the constitution, Article VI, which explains this. But so-called ‘constitutional sheriffs’ wish that they could ignore that part of the constitution that they hold so dear. These fine sheriffs belong to or follow the philosophy of the violent white supremacist group know as Posse Comitatus which I have written previously written about here: http://www.hcn.org/[…]/the-tea-party-loses-one-in-colorado.
 
As far as your examples of “A LOT of people are proposing ending all extraction and grazing on public lands”…I checked out your links. Your first group is proposing to provide “compensation to ranchers who voluntarily relinquish a federal grazing permit or lease on public lands … to permanently retire their permit or lease.” Key words there are “voluntary” and “compensation”.

Your second example the WWP, “supports federal legislation for a generous and voluntary federal grazing permit buyout program to compensate ranchers and restore public lands.” Key words: “voluntary” and “compensate”.

And your third example, the Wild Earth Guardians have a mission of “a future 100% powered by renewable energy by 2035. To get there, the goal of our Climate and Energy program is reform that prioritizes energy efficiency and conservation, phases out fossil fuels, and embraces environmentally appropriate clean power sources.” Um…ok. All examples of radicals who want to end all grazing and extraction on public lands? I think not.

So, y’all who are so upset about the feds taking your land away, you can relax. Somehow you’ve gotten confused. Unless you’re a Native American, or in some other cases, a Mexican, the land was never yours. Ever!
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Feb 01, 2016 08:34 AM
The Federal Government does not start out "Owning " land inside Oregon or any other State.
Dale Lockwood
Dale Lockwood Subscriber
Feb 01, 2016 08:55 AM
This discussion or lack of it could go on forever. The land was all federal land before Oregon was a state.
Also Many of the Ranches that abutted the refuge have very good working relationship and still do with the Wildlife refuge managers and a recent new plan was worked out by many of the real local parties.
The Federal Government is you and I,yes I own much of that land as you for public good. yes changes could be made the democratic way.

Wayne L Hare
Wayne L Hare Subscriber
Feb 01, 2016 01:20 PM
The American people acquired what later became the state of Oregon in 1846. It was all public land at that time. Oregon became a state 13 years later in 1859, at which time the American people/federal government gave the new state land that it had never owned, so that it could become a state. Within the boundaries of the newly formed state, the federal government kept some of their land as federally owned public land. It wasn’t given to the state. It wasn’t given to ranchers. It was kept as public land for the American people. Hope that helps.
Erin Evans
Erin Evans
Feb 05, 2016 07:36 PM
Amen, brother. We took over a severely abused New Mexico USFS lease 10 years ago. We have made a lot of improvements and gotten our Gila National Forest district a lot of funding to continue to make improvements. Yes, woodcutters and hunters cut fences and leave gates open, and occasionally kill a cow when they don't get their buck. But we maintain a good working relationship with our ranger district and treat the public land the same way we treat our private land. We have proposed a different grazing management plan to them, in an effort to maximize the benefit of whatever monsoon rains we get to both private and public properties, and we adhere to our agreement. The result? Our allotment has become something of a poster child for how these entities can all work together, and our grazing numbers have been increased, even though we have been in an extended drought. It's all about trust and integrity.
Dale Lockwood
Dale Lockwood Subscriber
Feb 05, 2016 07:56 PM
Were all in this together, I like your comments Erin.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Feb 05, 2016 07:58 PM
@ Erin: Well done, and I'll add, cooperating for everyone's good, which seems to be an ability sadly lacking amongst too many people in this issue :)

 Some of this likely has it's roots in the GOP's drift to the more radical spectrum since the 90s.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Feb 05, 2016 08:03 PM
@Erin: Sounds like a story that ought to be told on HCN ;)

Erin Evans
Erin Evans
Feb 05, 2016 08:12 PM
Thanks for your support, guys. Our whole approach is how do we heal the land, make it better, fix the problems that we see? Federal, state, or private, it doesn't matter. Where is the watershed the most damaged and where do we start to work to resolve the problem? We have to start at the top, which in our case is with the Forest Service. We have leased pastures that we haven't used in two years, due to the drought conditions. We stockpile grasses on our own land through deferred grazing, and treat our lease the same way. We have also through the funding we have obtained for our district, fenced off dirt tanks, installed solar pumps and offsite drinkers so the cows are not standing in the ponds and making a mess, but drinking out of tanks. The area around the dirt tanks is being revegetated for wildlife habitat, migratory birds, and ground-nesting birds. We have spent our own money on this on our own lands, and were the only non-NGO to get this type of funding applied to our USFS district through a fine imposed on a local mine. Three other ranches are involved in this project. Talk about power to the people: we are just regular folks, an actual working ranch, strictly family run, not a hobby ranch used as a tax shelter.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Feb 05, 2016 08:23 PM
Andy tips his hat to Erin Evans
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Feb 05, 2016 08:55 PM
@ Wayne from his wonderful comment on Jan31st:

"So, y’all who are so upset about the feds taking your land away, you can relax. Somehow you’ve gotten confused. Unless you’re a Native American, or in some other cases, a Mexican, the land was never yours. Ever! "

But it belongs to everybody now, and we aren't going to let anyone take it away so they can "develop it" and fill their own pockets at our expense.

 
Wayne L Hare
Wayne L Hare Subscriber
Feb 05, 2016 09:38 PM
Wayne also tips his hat to Erin. Amen brother! Hey Cliven, you listening?
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Feb 05, 2016 10:35 PM
One would think that organizations like the Oath Keepers would be on THAT side.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Feb 05, 2016 10:48 PM
@Wayne: Amen brother! Hey Cliven, you listening? : @ ALEC
Brandon Glimpse
Brandon Glimpse
Feb 05, 2016 11:39 PM
Be careful of a Government that can give you things ///// for that is the same Government that can take these same things away. Rights are something that cannot be taken away.
sean cruz
sean cruz
Feb 06, 2016 08:58 AM
Most Americans are unaware that the Oregon Territory was the scene of the largest free land giveaway in the nation's history through the 1850 Oregon Donation Land Act. More than 2 and half million acres of the best land was claimed by white settlers--who themselves were responsible for the deaths of some 95% of the Native population--before the survivors of the ethnic cleansing signed a single treaty. While this was going on, the first act of the new California state government was to offer bounties on Indian scalps and body parts and legalize Indian slavery. Hundreds of Indian villages were razed, their cemeteries looted. These are actual facts. There are no heroes in this story.
Melissa McDowell
Melissa McDowell Subscriber
Feb 06, 2016 08:44 PM
Thanks Erin for the progress you are making on the Gila NF. Story should be shared far and wide. And thanks Wayne for your clear and concise articulations.
Andy Grosland
Andy Grosland
Feb 06, 2016 09:06 PM
Well said Sean, thanks.