HCN: What about the land-management agencies and the politicians who support ranching?

J.M.: The agencies are compromised by ranching culture. A new biologist may want to do good honest science (showing ranching’s impacts), but they are quickly informed to get in line: "Don't bother us with information about plants," they are told. "That's not what we're doing here."

(Agencies and politicians) have all bought into the mythology that sprang from the media and popular entertainers like John Wayne and shows like Bonanza. (Even though) we have moved a long way from the cowboy myth - you're more likely to see cowboy clothing in a gay bar than on a street in a modern Western town, politicians like (Interior Secretary) Ken Salazar, (Utah Sen.) Orrin Hatch, (Utah Gov.) Gary Herbert, and (Wyoming Sen.) John Barrasso continue to believe fundamentally that the West is to be exploited.

HCN: You've long called it "welfare ranching," right?

J.M.: There are 800,000 livestock producers in the U.S., but just 21,000 get to use the public lands -- 2.5 percent. They have clout and privilege far beyond their numbers and they use it to maintain this house of cards. Over 60 percent of the grazing permittees on public lands are absentee owners. The old idea of mom-and-pop ranchers who use their blowtorch to burn the spines of prickly pear cactus so their cattle have something to eat is gone. Very rich people are buying ranches for the views, the landscape.

HCN: A few years ago, you helped put together a giant coffee-table book called Welfare Ranchers: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West. Did it help your cause?

J.M.: We had hoped that the book would have an impact like the early Sierra Club books (put together by David Brower) but it has had no impact on public policy, largely because the major conservation groups won't take the issue on.

HCN: Can you point to any victories?

J.M.: Our biggest victory was during the second term of the Bush administration when we stopped its attempt to rewrite the Babbitt/Clinton grazing regulations. We challenged them in federal court, and it went all the way to the Supreme Court, where we won.

We've also been successful with the greater sage grouse. Western Watersheds initially pursued the listing of the species under the Endangered Species Act. Thanks to our challenges, the BLM is now readying 68 management plans in eight Western states, and the Forest Service is amending dozens of forest plans to provide more protection for the sage grouse. Everyone is scrambling to show they have concern for the sage grouse in an attempt to avoid a listing. Our little group is one of the major reasons the crisis is here -- and it's a good thing.

HCN: So you’re a specialist in crisis development?

J.M.: When I first started working on this in the 1980s I did an I Ching reading about my desire to contest livestock grazing on public lands. My hexagram read "Major obstacles" and suggested that I seek alternative ways to reach my goal because there would be so much resistance. Of course I didn't do this. I think that unless you speak out about the problems, they will get swept under the rug.

HCN: In our 1999 story about you, Idaho rancher and now Lieutenant Gov. Brad Little gave you a sort of backhanded compliment, saying your efforts might have forced ranchers to be better stewards and document those efforts, in case you sued them.

J.M.: Fear is not the best motivator, but if ranchers are afraid of me, and then they go out and do better by the land, then I say, "Whatever it takes."

HCN: Do you still envision a future where there is no public-lands grazing?

J.M.: If the laws and regs on the books were implemented, and if grazing fees reflected market value, this problem would take care of itself in a matter of months. But in 20 years, there will be a lot less grazing on public lands, not because of concern for water, air or wildlife, but because of economics. The rich ranch owners will want a few decorative cows on the landscape, but nobody will want to be involved in the business. Ranchers are getting old, sick or divorced, and their kids have no interest in continuing on -- they've moved to Fort Collins or Boise. It's going to go away, we're just trying to accelerate it.